Solved: Custom properties from Normal.dot doesn't reproduce in new documents

[GrodanBoll]

Hi http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/039.gif

I have some custom properties in my templates (i.e. letter.dot) that I use.
And these work like a charm.

I also have the same custom properties in the Normal.dot but they will not reproduce when I create a new document based on this normal.dot.

Why is that? http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/100.gif


Thanks
Grodan

[sandam]

Hi there.

Just a quick suggestion, would it be possible to post your normal.dot as an attachment (you need to zip it first and use the advanced posting option)? It might help to narrow the problem down. And also if you described the properties in your normal.dot that you are trying to reproduce.

Andrew;?

[TonyJollans]

Also posted at Tek-Tips (http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1120797&page=1), so far with no helpful answers.

Interesting observation and, sorry, I don't know the answer either :)

It's just the way it is. I think it's a sensible, if not entirely intuitive, compromise by Microsoft but I have never seen anything which explains (or even documents) it.

[fumei]

It may help if you could give some more details of these.

I am trying to understand what the relevance is of letter.dot. Is the point that you can use custom properties of letter.dot (and presumably any other USER created template), but you can not use custom properties of normal.dot.?

Sorry, but that is the way it is.

There are only a very few Properties of Normal.dot that are carried into a new document.

Author and Company for example. Everything else is not...which actually makes sense.

Even real custom properties, such a Client are not carried into the newly created document, by default.

As has been pointed out, you CAN carry them over to a new document by code.

[MOS MASTER]

Hi, :hi:

Well the true reason for this liese somewhere in the dungeons of Microsoft. Like Tony I didn't read anything about it ever...

I go with Gerry that it is design by default for a purpose..
Normal.dot is the mother of all templates...when Word is concerned that is.

It's the default for all new documents made from a Word session. I thinks that is the reason Documentproperties aren't transported to the document.

In a template you build for a specific purpose MS can acspect you to want that inheritance of that Template. (Cause you always no you are creating a document based on that template)

Normal.dot is used every time you make a new document. And I'm sure that for most people the documents they make from day to day are always for different topics. So properties for one document should not appear in each document made by Word.

I hope I explained it alright cause I truly believe that is the reason for MS to do so.

HTH, :whistle:

[GrodanBoll]

Thanks for your answers, and ofcourse thanks again to fumei as he answered in Tek-Tips aswell. =]

I buy your explenation MOS MASTER.

I'll proberbly create the properties in Document_New.


Thanks again =]
Grodan

[TonyJollans]

Having thought about this a bit, you don't really base documents on Normal at all, it's more that Normal is attached to them if you don't explicitly base them on something else (in the same way that Normal is temporarily attached to them if the base template can't be located). Normal is simply there because that's the way Word works - it needs a template and if you don't supply one it (rather grudgingly) uses its own but it doesn't do the full template thing.

Thanks for the question - it's made me think - something I don't always do :)

[GrodanBoll]

Hi again =]

The reason that I'd like to have custom properties in documents based on Normal.dot and not only documenct based on other templates (i.e. letter.dot, minutes.dot, report.dot) is



For quality resons.
In the custom properites it is possible, via a simple user form, to save data to ensure som degree of quallity and trackability (I don't even now if that is a word?).
For the average user.
The averagre user don't always think when he is about to create a document for a project that there are now specific template for. He/she only press the blank-document-icon and gets a document based on Normal.dot.
In the custom properties I i.e. save data about:


If the document should ha a logo inside or if the document should be printed on letter paper or there should be no logo at all.
Date of the document.
Version of the document.
Project no.
Project name.
Creator.
All this data gives me some status/quality about the Word-document.


From http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1120797 and TonyJollans.

You can put code in Document_New if that's what you want but you should be aware that it doesn't fire when you open up Word and get a new empty document by default; it only fires when you explicitly create a new document from within Word.
So the Normal.dot don't respond at all as the template files in common?


/Grodan

[TonyJollans]

Hi Grodan,

No, whn you press the "New" icon, or go via File > New, in Word then events in Normal fire as they do in any other template.

It's when you start Word (from Windows) without a document and get a blank one by default - it's then that Normal's Document_New doesn't fire (in fact the only event you can use in those circumstances is the Application Document Change event but that fires on lots of other occasions too).

[fumei]

Grodan, please think about the following - a quote from you....


In the custom properties I i.e. save data about:

If the document should ha a logo inside or if the document should be printed on letter paper or there should be no logo at all.

Think about it. REALLY think about it.

You want to save data about IF...blah blah blah.

IF????? You want to store data on logic? Surely not. It would be possible to store logical information, but you sure as heck would not use custom properties to do so.

You could store something that is the RESULT of logic statements IF this, do that. Look at DOCVARIABLE for a start.

I am going to rant further:

1. I am sorry, but it is long past the time to baby sit users to the degree you mention. If a user is working on a project, and their new documents should be using a specific template then they should be trained to use it.

2. Put a button on the toolbar that makes a document based on that template...forget about the new document button. Heck, take it right off the toolbar!

3. All the data you want to be captured from quality control reasons....ALL of this stuff should be in the template used. It should NOT be in Normal.dot. All of the data you mantion is easily built and retained in a document based on a template.

[MOS MASTER]

Having thought about this a bit, you don't really base documents on Normal at all, it's more that Normal is attached to them if you don't explicitly base them on something else (in the same way that Normal is temporarily attached to them if the base template can't be located). Normal is simply there because that's the way Word works - it needs a template and if you don't supply one it (rather grudgingly) uses its own but it doesn't do the full template thing.

Thanks for the question - it's made me think - something I don't always do :)

Hi Tony, :yes

Somehow it must be a language thing but I think when pressing the new button you do base (And attach) a new document on Normal.dot!

You must mean something else then me but I'm not getting this one....

Take a very simple test:
Open Normal.dot and write youre name in the body of the document and save it.

Now close Word.
Reopen and what do you see....Your name! So the new document is fully based on Normal.dot. (And again and again when you press New button)

Also styles and other stuff from Normal are available due to the attaching of Normal. The test with the text proves that Word does something like:
Documents.Add(Normaltemplate.FullName)
when pressing New button.

Perhaps you meant something else and its already late over here so I'm probably not getting it...but IMO all new documents are based on Normal.dot (When pressing new of course in normal setup)

Later .... :whistle:

[TonyJollans]

Sorry Joost, it's just me thinking aloud really.

Just trying to make sense of what it is that Word does. It's not just the properties, it's other little things like events not firing when a new document is automatically created based on Normal when you start up Word. Normal is not like any other template and documents based on Normal are not quite llike documents based on other templates.

I have no real knowledge, I'm just trying to interpret what happens in a way I can explain - which I've obviously failed at so far http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/082.gif

[MOS MASTER]

I have no real knowledge, I'm just trying to interpret what happens in a way I can explain - which I've obviously failed at so far http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/082.gif

Same here....(Remember I read english different then you) :rotlaugh:

I do agree the ways of Word are often a mistory!!! That's why it's my favourite app....Never a dull moment.

And your knowledge never fails my dear Sir! :yes

[TonyJollans]

Never a dull moment indeed :)

[MOS MASTER]

Hihihi.... :moosegrin

[fumei]

When Word itself is loaded it makes a document with the contents of normal.dot. Which is why Document_New does not fire. Clicking the New button does of course fire it.

[GrodanBoll]

Hi :hi:



Think about it. REALLY think about it.

You want to save data about IF...blah blah blah.

IF????? You want to store data on logic? Surely not. It would be possible to store logical information, but you sure as heck would not use custom properties to do so.

You could store something that is the RESULT of logic statements IF this, do that. Look at DOCVARIABLE for a start.


Hmm, I don't know what you are getting at here.
I store values like "logo", "no_logo" or "letter" in a custom property. I can't see why this is wrong or where else I should contain the status? Maybe I'm missing something important here?



1. I am sorry, but it is long past the time to baby sit users to the degree you mention. If a user is working on a project, and their new documents should be using a specific template then they should be trained to use it.

I know. =]
And it looks like my intention didn't work out, and maybe I need to create at template for an empty document aswell. I just thought that I would spare the user some mouse clicks.

Can I disable a toolbar when the user has at document based on Normal.dot?



2. Put a button on the toolbar that makes a document based on that template...forget about the new document button. Heck, take it right off the toolbar!

Hmm, that would be nice. How do I do that?
And can I also choose to not have a blank document at program start up?



3. All the data you want to be captured from quality control reasons....ALL of this stuff should be in the template used. It should NOT be in Normal.dot. All of the data you mantion is easily built and retained in a document based on a template.
They are in the specific templates I have created (i.e. letter, minutes and fax).
The only reason of my wish to have the custom properties in the Normal.dot aswell is because the user often create a document based on the Normal.dot (since it is there when the program opens). But if I can control things in the toolbars (remove the blank document button) and be able to block the startup document then this will be solved.

Many thanks for your thoughts :bow: :)

/Grodan

[sandam]

Here's a thought, and I'll post a link to the KB entry about creating custom toolbars in Word as well.

You can add a module of code to the Normal.dot, you can also add a custom toolbar.

So, my suggestion is combine the two. You add a toolbar with buttons representing each of the templates you need to create. Then, you already have the templates (perhaps not a blank one, but thats easily done). Then when the user loads Word, because you have the toolbar and the code module. You can use the toolbar buttons to create a new document based on whatever template is required. This way, the user does not have to goto a template directory etc. and Word can remain running which will make creating the new documents from the templates marginally faster as Word does not have to realod its instance each time.

HTH

Andrew;?

Custom Menus and Toolbars

[GrodanBoll]

Hmm, if I understand you right then it's not really what I want.
I'd like to disable the "blank document button" or maybe remove the same.
Then I also would like to block the "doc1" that is created when Word starts, so that there is no page or a page of my choice.

[sandam]

IMHO I dont think whaqt your asking for is possible. Its taking the customization of Word beyond whats meant to be capable of and that is always a tricky one.

[fumei]

This is quite strange. What EXACTLY are you trying to do?????

S[aring the user a few mouse clicks is a fine intention, but what you seem to be trying is beyond that.

Why on earth would you want to force Word into opening without the normal blank document? What is the big deal here? I don't get it.

Why do you want to remove the the New (blank) document button. Yes, you can remove it, absolutely. But it is removed from Normal.dot - if that is what you are working with. YES, you can have it removed from a template. Heck I have a template that has NO format buttons at all. No Font, no Size, no Bold etc etc. Just tabs of the available styles. Yes you can force customization of the oolbars.

However, it takes some code, and more importantly, it takes very thoughtful design. Sparing a few mouse click does not cut it for the work involved.

[fumei]

Just as a further note to Tony. An AutoExec routine in normal.dot DOES fire when Word is loaded. It fires BEFORE the creation of the blank document.

[fumei]

sandam....

IMHO I dont think whaqt your asking for is possible. Its taking the customization of Word beyond whats meant to be capable of and that is always a tricky one.

You are incorrect. It is quite possible, and very easy.

[TonyJollans]

You're not wrong - it fires before there is a document - but it gives me an idea.

To suppress (or close) the empty document that Word starts with, one could initialise application events and set a global flag in autoexec - and then check that global flag in the document change event and, if set, close the document and unset the flag - and even disable application events when you're done so there is no ongoing overhead. I suppose one could even then create a new document (based on normal) which would fire document_new.

I might knock up a test of that.

[fumei]

Hi Tony, I just posted a KB Entry on this. It does not use Application events. The code is:

Sub AutoExec()
Dim response
response = MsgBox("Are you working on the Variable Project?", vbYesNo)
If response = vbYes Then
Documents.Add _
Template:="C:\Documents and Settings\Gerry\Application Data\Microsoft\Templates\my_variable.dot"
End If
End Sub

With Word NOT loaded, when Word loads AutoExec fires, asks if you are working on the "Variable Project", and if I answer Yes, then a new document based on the stated template IS the opening document. The normal blank document is NOT created. There is only one document - a new one based on the stated template.

In other words, the regular blank document is supressed - or rather, is replaced.

[sandam]

sandam....


You are incorrect. It is quite possible, and very easy.

Fair enough. I guess its a case of speaking before knowing :doh:

[GrodanBoll]

This is quite strange. What EXACTLY are you trying to do?????

S[aring the user a few mouse clicks is a fine intention, but what you seem to be trying is beyond that.

Why on earth would you want to force Word into opening without the normal blank document? What is the big deal here? I don't get it.

Ok, lets take it from the top...

I'm creating some templates for my company, and I'm trying to create them as simple as possible. So I took out all the general metadata that would be repeated in all pages (for quality an trackability), i.e. project number, version and date, and created custom properties to contain these data.
This custom properties is the same for all the templates.

For all the other metadata that is just placed in one place I creted macro fields for the user to fill in.

Simpel an nice IMO. :whip


Hmm... then I thought that couldn't I use this metadata in a blank document aswell... then I would still have all the data that our quality system requires... but hidden.... not shown in the document itself but still accessible.

And knowing the typical user, the one that would start creating a document from scratch if we didn't have a specific template for that purpose... this user would use the blank document created when he started Word or pressed the "blank/new document button".
My next step was to create the same custom properties that I use in the other templates in Normal.dot thinking that this template would act in the same way... WTF? it didn't... was I doing something wrong?

So I asked the question in this forum.

When I got the answer that Normal.dot don't act in the same way that other templates I asked some questions trying to find out what could be done about it.

And here we are... :hi:

Does the above explanation clear the questions you have?


At this point I'm inclined to create a specific blank template to use and hope that the users follows the comany guidelines... :eek:
And you all know where that will lead us. ;)

[sandam]

I think Gerry's post actually covers what you want GrodanBoll. If you replace the normal.dot with your "own" blank template and perhaps have a form that appears as well that lets you're user select which document to create then you can:

1) store all the metadata your users need in this "new" normal.dot.
2) by having the form to select which document they want, you are always in control of the creation process and can limit them as much as you want to.
3) and even if you over write the replacement document with the document that is being created - you still have all your metadata stored in those templates as well.

[TonyJollans]

Good stuff, Gerry. I was just thinking as I typed and, of course, I didn't have to make it that complex!

[MOS MASTER]

Just as a further note to Tony. An AutoExec routine in normal.dot DOES fire when Word is loaded. It fires BEFORE the creation of the blank document.

True buddy.

A special note here.

AutoExec only execute the first time you fire up Word!!
If Outlook is running with Word as editor it won't Fire!

If a Word process is already running it Won't fire....

So only the first time you start a Word process it fires.

So yes its a great tool but you need to know about these cave-ats! :yes

[MOS MASTER]

sandam....


You are incorrect. It is quite possible, and very easy.

Agreed as always..but its not sensible.

To the OP:

And the easy method would to disable the button like:
CommandBars("Standard").Controls("New Blank Document").Enabled = False

But it is bad practice to wanna conquer Word cause you have to think about stuff like CTRL+N | File New etc...there are always more ways in Word to execute a command and you have to cover all.

I wouldn't go that way! :whistle:

[MOS MASTER]

Hi GrodanBoll, :hi:

Ok I have a suggestion to make to make shure you will always start with the right template. :yes (It's probably not fool proof yet but will get there I think)

For now we need to cover:

Startup by Word
Pressing File | New
Using shortcut CTRL+N
Pressing New blank document button.
Things I'm missing right now
I'm asuming this:

Code will be placed in a Normal code module inserted in Normal.dot!!
The template to be used is called "test.dot" and it is in the same folder as Normal.dot is!! (Important)
Ok insert the code module in to Normal.dot (Use a fresh Normal to test this properly cause other code could influence the test!!!)

Paste this code in the module:
Option Explicit

'***AUTOMACRO***
' Executes when Word is started for the FIRST TIME!
Sub AutoExec()
Call MyFileNew
End Sub

'***WORD COMMANDS***
'Executes when you press the New Blank Document button
Sub FileNewDefault()
Call MyFileNew
End Sub

'Executes when you choose File | New or CTRL+N
Sub FileNew()
Call MyFileNew
End Sub

'***SUPPORT***
'Sub to create a new document based on test.dot
'which is in the same directory as the file you execute
'this code from (Normal.dot or any global template will do)
Sub MyFileNew()
Documents.Add ThisDocument.Path & "\test.dot"
End Sub


Now when you close Word and reopen it your test.dot template is loaded. Also when you choose File | New , Ctrl+n and New blank document button.

Things to cover (have to do other stuff first):
When Word is already open the AutoExec is not fired so when someone opens a new instance of Word via a shortcut to start WinWord.exe for the second time...it's NOT fired!! (Should not happen a lot but it must be foorseen!)

Try it out and let me know if it works for you. (Whit this method you can use a template of your choise with the custom properties in them!)

HTH, :whistle:

[TonyJollans]

True buddy.

A special note here.

AutoExec only execute the first time you fire up Word!!
If Outlook is running with Word as editor it won't Fire!

If a Word process is already running it Won't fire....

So only the first time you start a Word process it fires.

So yes its a great tool but you need to know about these cave-ats! :yes

Good point, Joost.

AutoExec fires once per instance of Word when it starts, and I suppose I hadn't thought about it properly but, yes, if Word is running in Outlook, a new instance is not created.

[MOS MASTER]

Good point, Joost.

AutoExec fires once per instance of Word when it starts, and I suppose I hadn't thought about it properly but, yes, if Word is running in Outlook, a new instance is not created.

Yes its one of the frustrations of my live dealing with Word and Outlook together so yes I found out the hard way.

Another way to make sure Word starts with the right template is to add a commandline switch to the shortcut you execute Word with (I think switch /t (Have to look it up) to start a template of your choise every time you startup Word)

Later buddy. :whistle:

[MOS MASTER]

Ps Tony did you try out my code sollution?

Do you see anymore caveat's on the way? :yes

[TonyJollans]

Interesting.

I put your code in a new module in one of my global templates - and forgot I already had an AutoExec in Normal (don't know why I forgot - I have a MsgBox in it :)).

The AutoExec in Normal ran, and the message box displayed before a document was created, as expected. Then the AutoExec in my global template ran (I put a msgbox as the first statement in it) and the msgbox displayed AFTER Word had created a blank document based on normal. Your code ran and created a new document based on test BUT it was Document2 and I still had Document1 (based on normal) open (i.e two documents).

I'm off to bed now but I will play a bit more tomorrow.

[MOS MASTER]

Ok Tony welterusten! :yes

Like I said we have to test first in a clean environment without other code bugging it. (We can get those problems out later by using flags)

I'll await your results and perhaps a nights rest will give me more thoughts about this too. :whistle:

[TonyJollans]

This is fascinating! Word 2003.

It appears that AutoExec macros can be run from global templates - I currently have four different ones running and they all run after blank document initialisation. It would appear that Word loads Normal and runs Auto Macros in Normal, then creates a blank document (I haven't yet tried experimenting with opening existing docs), then loads global templates and runs auto macros in global templates.

BUT .. I have had to do some messing about to get them all to run consistently and I can't pin down exactly what it takes at the moment.

As far as I knew before today there was no way to run any auto macro on or after initialisation of a default blank document. Now I know better, I shall try hard to pin down exact details and report back. Meanwhile I have to mow the lawn.

[fumei]

Look, the original comment was that loading Word from scratch does not fire Document_New.

AutoExec solves that - it replaces the normal blank doc with a blank doc from the template of choice.

To replace the new blank doc produced with a new blank document from the tyemplate of choice, you use the same code using Document_New.

that way regardless of whether you are starting Word for the first time, OR clicking the New button, you get the same blank document from the specified template.

As far Word as Outlook editor....someone else solve that....I would never do that. IMHO using Word as email editor is ....insert typical Gerry rant here....

[TonyJollans]

Look, the original comment was that loading Word from scratch does not fire Document_New.

AutoExec solves that - it replaces the normal blank doc with a blank doc from the template of choice.

To replace the new blank doc produced with a new blank document from the tyemplate of choice, you use the same code using Document_New.

that way regardless of whether you are starting Word for the first time, OR clicking the New button, you get the same blank document from the specified template.

As far Word as Outlook editor....someone else solve that....I would never do that. IMHO using Word as email editor is ....insert typical Gerry rant here....

It is certainly true that the thread has wandered but the original question was actually about why properties of the Normal template are not copied to new documents. It was not about events or auto macros - if I recall, it was you, Gerry, who introduced them into the discussion.

The initial question raised an issue I didn't know about, and out of the discussion has come something I find interesting - if you don't, then you don't have to participate further :). But, perhaps you are right, I should start a new thread.

As far as using Word in Outlook is concerned it makes no sense for me to do it but I can see that others in other situations might want to and I can imagine some corporate users not even knowing they have a choice (it is the default on Outlook 2003 install). It seems sensible to sound a note of caution that some aspects of Word's behaviour outside of Outlook (in particular those discussed here) are affected by the use of Word within Outlook.

I'll look up the rant - I'm sure I have a copy http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/082.gif

[MOS MASTER]

This is fascinating! Word 2003.

It appears that AutoExec macros can be run from global templates - I currently have four different ones running and they all run after blank document initialisation. It would appear that Word loads Normal and runs Auto Macros in Normal, then creates a blank document (I haven't yet tried experimenting with opening existing docs), then loads global templates and runs auto macros in global templates.

This is true and I mentioned using automacro's in global templates being a pain.

I've often had problems automating a new addin in a environment whit more then one add-in and/or automacro's in Normal.dot. (That's why I suggested testing it in a clean environment and troubleshoot later)



BUT .. I have had to do some messing about to get them all to run consistently and I can't pin down exactly what it takes at the moment.

As far as I knew before today there was no way to run any auto macro on or after initialisation of a default blank document. Now I know better, I shall try hard to pin down exact details and report back. Meanwhile I have to mow the lawn.

Take your time Tony and I hope the lawn looks lovely by now. (Mine needs a mow too)

I'm awaiting your findings! :yes

[MOS MASTER]

To replace the new blank doc produced with a new blank document from the tyemplate of choice, you use the same code using Document_New.

Or use Word macros like my sample above. :yes



As far Word as Outlook editor....someone else solve that....I would never do that. IMHO using Word as email editor is ....insert typical Gerry rant here....

Rant a way buddy! :rofl:

But the simple fact is you don't have to like it! It's a very common used practice using Word as editor and if you are developing a sollution you have to catere for it....

And I had a struggle with this a lot of times....:whistle:

[MOS MASTER]

It is certainly true that the thread has wandered but the original question was actually about why properties of the Normal template are not copied to new documents. It was not about events or auto macros - if I recall, it was you, Gerry, who introduced them into the discussion.

Gentlemen please....:rofl:



The initial question raised an issue I didn't know about, and out of the discussion has come something I find interesting - if you don't, then you don't have to participate further :). But, perhaps you are right, I should start a new thread.


Not realy the OP changed his question to how to start Word always with the same template and each template made by the new document button.

So where in the right place as far as I'm concerned. :yes



As far as using Word in Outlook is concerned it makes no sense for me to do it but I can see that others in other situations might want to and I can imagine some corporate users not even knowing they have a choice (it is the default on Outlook 2003 install). It seems sensible to sound a note of caution that some aspects of Word's behaviour outside of Outlook (in particular those discussed here) are affected by the use of Word within Outlook.

True, true....and Like I said if you develop for others you have no choise or opinion in the matter .... you just tell it can or can't be done!



I'll look up the rant - I'm sure I have a copy http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/082.gif

You can borrow mine Tony....:rotlaugh:

[fumei]

Very funny.

[GrodanBoll]

Hi :hi:

Thanks for all your work and answers.
I'm still thinking what path to take... an easy one och or a more complicated one. I'll proberbly release a version 1 which I can fill up more to version 2.

Again thanks for all your time :friends: :bow:

The question/s I had are solved for the moment so I'll mark the thread solved.


Thanks
Grodan

[MOS MASTER]

Very funny.

Glad you like it...I loved it! :rotlaugh:

[MOS MASTER]

Again thanks for all your time :friends: :bow:

The question/s I had are solved for the moment so I'll mark the thread solved.


Hi Grodan, :hi:

Thanx for marking it solved and I'm glad we could help you reach your goal! :yes