EE Members, Please

[Anne Troy]

I half suspect JOrzech has posted this thread in hopes that she can show it to others in her office, so I'd appreciate any EE members posting to support her:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Word/Q_21606661.html

[TonyJollans]

Haven't been to EE for a while - I got fed up with it - points seemed more important than answers - but I just dropped in and posted.

[Tommy]

FWIW I posted also

[Anne Troy]

Thanks, Tony. :)
Good job in the ng.

[mdmackillop]

Moral support and sympathy supplied!

Haven't been there all year, but I got 1600 points this month!

[TonyJollans]

Good job in the ng.

Thanks. You too. It's a bit busy there though - I can't keep up :)

[Anne Troy]

Tony: I found that most of my problem with the ng was not doing a couple of custom settings in OE.

1. Make all my posts appear in red (for me, of course)
2. Mark all read after I leave one
3. Put the show next unread msg button on the toolbar

:)

[TonyJollans]

Yeah, done that ('cept I like blue better than red) - there's just so much to read, even when you ignore the bizarre.

I haven't got the trick of posting links to the right places yet - I don't know what they all are and so I only usually answer stuff I know off the top of my head and even then, because there's so much I tend to go for the ones that interest me - and, the real good thing, I'm learning loads.

[brettdj]

I half suspect JOrzech has posted this thread in hopes that she can show it to others in her office, so I'd appreciate any EE members posting to support her:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/Word/Q_21606661.htmlWill do.

DB, are you back at EE, I see you are racking up some answers again?



Haven't been to EE for a while - I got fed up with it - points seemed more important than answers - but I just dropped in and posted.
Yes, I reached the same point some time back. There are some great people there, both in terms of coding and personality, but the great dash to get points means quality comes second.

[Anne Troy]

EE: It's all true, guys. Luckily, it's not so hot and heavy in the Word area and Jo disappeared for quite a few days there.

Tony, I've got tons of answers on www.officearticles.com (http://www.officearticles.com). Feel free. And if you wanna see a file, invite them to join the forum there, and they can upload (zip) files. I just bought www.windowsarticles.com (http://www.windowsarticles.com), too. Because I could. LOL!! I didn't think it would be available. I'm considering it...

I think the big difference over at (or shall I say "down in"? I've always thought of it as "the dungeon") the ng is that people (okay, MVPs mostly) seem to think there is one answer and one answer only...it's not appropriate to give a "maybe" answer, just in case it takes a while for the one answer to come along. And it amazes me. I pretty much stay away unless I have something to offer, yet I see others posting the same thing I did 3 hour later, which is to me unnecessary. It's weird, for sure.

[Bob Phillips]

I think the big difference over at (or shall I say "down in"? I've always thought of it as "the dungeon") the ng is that people (okay, MVPs mostly) seem to think there is one answer and one answer only...it's not appropriate to give a "maybe" answer, just in case it takes a while for the one answer to come along. And it amazes me. I pretty much stay away unless I have something to offer, yet I see others posting the same thing I did 3 hour later, which is to me unnecessary. It's weird, for sure.

That is not my experience, I often see those same MVPs posting alternate solutions. Indeed, most of Dave Peterson's posts start with ' another way is ...'. Sure, some people are convinced of the 'one truth', but this is not confined to the MVPs. I would challenge anyone to find anyone better at the internals of VB/VBA than Rob Bovey or Stephen Bullen, better at charts than Jon Peltier or Andy Pope, better on Data Validation and Pivot tables than Debra Dalgleish, better on VBA than Tom Ogilvy, better on mail than Ron de Bruin, better on date functionality than Norman Harker, better all-round than the late Frank Kabel, and so on. What do all of these people have in common? They are all MVPs. They are not lauded/good at what they offer because they are MVPs, but rather they are MVPs because they are good at what they know and the support they give, and often because they make the discoveries that the rest of us feed on. It is easy to take a pop at MVPs, but their contribution is immense. Even in websites alone, can you think of a better one than Chip Pearson's?

And while we are at it, stats for one Anne Troy in the (Excel alone) NGs
Oct 2005 (To date) 220
Sep 2005 - 362
Aug 2005 - 170
Jul 2005 - 676
Jun 2005 - 260

Current posting rank 7th. That doesn't sound likje someone staying away to me, rather someone aspiring for MVP status http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/devil.gif

[XL-Dennis]

Hi everyone and especially Ann :hi:

I frequent EE mainly for my interest in SQL Server / VB / VB.NET and VB & Databases. A side activity is to occassionally answer some obscure post in the Excel section.

I fully agree with Bob's insightful general opinion but my largest issue with MSFT ngs are that I find the interfaces (both via the newsreader and as well as the web browser) to be difficult. There seems also to be a time delay when posting, at least from my part of the world.

Anyway, good to see that the MS MVPs nowadays frequent other public boards and forums as well, especially the more younger group of them ;)

Take care eveyone and enjoy being a member of the global most friendly community of them all - the Excel community :)

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Bob Phillips]

I fully agree with Bob's insightful general opinion but my largest issue with MSFT ngs are that I find the interfaces (both via the newsreader and as well as the web browser) to be difficult. There seems also to be a time delay when posting, at least from my part of the world.

Dennis,

That is interesting, as I find the web portals to the NGs annoying, but the NGs themselves are by far the easiest way to have an easy to use dialogue. Most web forums take far too long IMO. VBAX is one of the better (dare I say best?) of the web forums, but others are either so fussy to use, or drowned with irrelevant information, icons, adverts et al that they annoy. Of course, the web forums such as VBAX have the VBA tags and attachments which the NGs don't, but too often these are used by the poster as a means of making the responder do all the work rather than properly explaining the problem. I often read a post and just give up as the poster has just said I have a problem, see attached workbook.

I also only get a time delay of say 2 mins on my posts, via the NGs that is.

[XL-Dennis]

Bob,

Hm, I have the opposite situation, i e exceptionell fast access to most of the public forums / boards (except for MrExcel) while the NGs are not workable for me.

For some years ago when I tried to access the NGs my replies was delayed with 4-6 hours at the best while the worse was more then 10 hours... Except for that I still can't view all threads as most of them are uncomplete (either I see the answer or individual replies only). From time to time I've asked my ISP to check it up but they can't see any reason for it so it's out of their control too.

I wonder if other face the same situation as we do (although the differences).

Kind regards,
Dennis

[brettdj]

Bob & Dennis, interesting comments

When I looked at the NG's two years ago,I found them be more suited to quick questions and I'll pose a few theories

so many questions asked in a short space of time
the basic NG interface (pretty much without web portal access then) means question visisbility is quickly lost
attachements are rarely (never?) used
experts keen to attain MVP status swamp the answers, much like the lure of the points system at EE
Cheers

Dave

[Bob Phillips]

When I looked at the NG's two years ago,I found them be more suited to quick questions and I'll pose a few theories



so many questions asked in a short space of time
the basic NG interface (pretty much without web portal access then) means question visisbility is quickly lost
I agree, it the main the NGs are short sharp responses, but I would argue it is because in very many instances the OP has thought about the problem, has worked on it, and posted just to get some direction on the immediate problem.

In the forums, too often the posts seem to me to be asking someone else to do their job, something that they should be paying someone for.

In other words, I like to encourage people to develop their skills, not necessarily provide a full solution. I think the NGs are better at this.


attachements are rarely (never?) used

I am ambiguous about attachments (as I am about multi/cross-posting). I understand the point about viruses etc., but we can download and virus check them. More relevant IMO is download times. I have a colleague in the backwaters of France who is on dial-up. He is a very skilled person, so he uses the NGs to support, and attachments hurt him.

I often use the Free File hosting portals to provide an example workbook should the OP care to look (an idea I got from Max in the NGs http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif).


experts keen to attain MVP status swamp the answers, much like the lure of the points system at EE

Ouch! Actually, I feel my best work (some useful formulae, and VBA apps) have been done in the NGs, it was there that I got clues and techniques I adapted later.

.

[XL-Dennis]

experts keen to attain MVP status swamp the answers, much like the lure of the points system at EE


As long as it exist any kind of ranking system and or award system this dysfunctional behaviour exist.

Knowledge is best handle when we don't take part of this race and in the long run people with this in focus will propably drop out (even better hopefully!).

Unfortunately I can't view the NG's groups in a way that I can make any general comments but the interface itself put a higher demand on the OPs which of course benefit the core issues but the ability to expand the issue is limited.

Actually, it reminds me about the old BBS-system.



In the forums, too often the posts seem to me to be asking someone else to do their job, something that they should be paying someone for.


With a nice and friendly interface and also with an e-mailalert function and all the other whistle and bells it invite users with different kind of intentions. But I can agree with Your opinion (remember sal21 aka the pizzaman). But in the end I believe it's up to each one of us. After all, we still have the option to read and move along ;)



In other words, I like to encourage people to develop their skills, not necessarily provide a full solution. I think the NGs are better at this.


Interesting and if this is the case then more of the knowledgeable developers should be active in the NGs. Are they?

In general I support diversity and I strongly believe that several different kind of channels for knowledge can co-exist without a core competition.

Different kind of users and developers find their ways and as this thread shows we prefer different kind of channels.

Now I will read some threads in an obscure GNumeric-forum ;)

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Anne Troy]

Wow. This IS an interesting thread, huh?

Bob: I think of the newsgroups as "the dungeons", and when I was talking about them, I wasn't talking about the past few months where I've been posting a lot, but more about "over the years" of posting in there.

I think that you get more "do this for me" posters up here because, quite simply, they couldn't figure out how to use the newsgroups if they COULD find them! So I think it's more about level of user that we get up here as opposed to down there.

I think that, overall, they're just quite a bit tougher down there. I think we're more polite and tolerant up here.

Don't get me wrong about the MVPs. Matter of fact, out of the people you specifically mention...


Rob Bovey, Stephen Bullen, Jon Peltier, Andy Pope, Debra Dalgleish, Tom Ogilvy, Ron de Bruin, Norman Harker, Frank Kabel

I can only think of one that's been a bit rude to me. Half of them: I don't believe I've ever seen a post made by them--at least not in the past few months, but there's groups I avoid and perhaps they post in those most. But there ARE other MVPs, I assure you, who come across as cranky and sarcastic in many of their posts. (But being one of them doesn't make me cranky and sarcastic, so yes, I'll accept it, Bob.) I remember when I first saw this. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Probably a couple of years later, I mentioned it somewhere, and got hammered with a bunch of comments where people felt the same. Bob, your posts (anywhere) are more to the point, but I don't recall ever seeing you be sardonic or sarcastic. There's a big difference. Maybe I should pay more attention...maybe it's mostly Word... LOL. Anyway, it's not the knowledge at all--they're all incredible--some for certain reasons, some for many reasons. It's not the willingness to give the information--I know all too well the number of hours I've spent on the web. It's the delivery. ON AVERAGE, it just seems you gotta put your thick skin on to go down there, but especially if you're answering questions.

Bob: It would be Word, not Excel, tho that's another story unto itself.
Dennis: You know I couldn't decline it. (Do you still check your Konsult@ email?) :)

[Anne Troy]

This is me in the newsgroups. LOL
http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm

[Bob Phillips]

As long as it exist any kind of ranking system and or award system this dysfunctional behaviour exist.

Knowledge is best handle when we don't take part of this race and in the long run people with this in focus will propably drop out (even better hopefully!).

Well that is a high principle, but very often people only seek a solution, they are not interested in increasing their knowledge (after all, they can always post the next question later http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/banghead.gif).

Too few actually seek to increase their knowledge. As you are no doubt aware, most of us on both the NGs and the forums fall into one of two categories, we ask questions or we answer them. How many do you see who move from those who ask to to those who answer, or even how many times do you see someone repeatedly ask the same sort of question, never moving on (I would add an endorsement of Gibbo175 here http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/clap.gif, who IMO has actively sought to improve by asking smart questions).


With a nice and friendly interface and also with an e-mailalert function and all the other whistle and bells it invite users with different kind of intentions.

I agree that the less intimidating forums do encourage a different kind of poster, and for that they should be commended.

Personally, I hate email alerts. I get hundreds of the damn things. I get them from XL-Logic, Excel-L Listserv, and EE, and try as I might to switch them off, they still come. Luckily, I managed to switch of the VBAX ones http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif.


But I can agree with Your opinion (remember sal21 aka the pizzaman). But in the end I believe it's up to each one of us. After all, we still have the option to read and move along ;)

Can't argue with that, and whilst it gives me a buzz, I will continue.


Interesting and if this is the case then more of the knowledgeable developers should be active in the NGs. Are they?
Dennis

I think so. Some of the guys I previously mentioned. There are a few around that are good that don't use the NGs (including your good self), but most are not as good as their local reputations IMO. Most try their hand in the NGs at one time or another, but shy off when they see that theyu are nothing out of the ordinary (remember Dave Hawley's experience!). I don't see the originality that I do with my afore-mentioned people, or the sheer intelligence of someone like Harlan Grove, David Braden or Laurent Longre.

[Ken Puls]

Interesting topic this has turned out to be... and I just can't hold back from chipping in my 2 cents!

On the MVP's, I have met some stellar MVP's who are just fantastic people. Bill Jelen and Jon Peltier are two who come to mind. Both talented and friendly as well. I have also met their complete counterparts as well. One in particular I will never look at as anything but arrogant, rude and self centered, and I flat out refuse to post anything in a thread in which he has been involved. There is no question in my mind that he has some incredible techinical skill, but his attitude destroys my respect for him. But all of this is just part of the diversity of the world, and it certainly wouldn't stop me from accepting an MVP award should I ever earn the right to it.

As far as the newsgroups go, I've posted one answer there myself... and I couldn't find my way back to it! Okay, I didn't try too hard either, but the interface there was not intuitive to me at all. I'll liken this to a retail experience I've had in the past where I had to line up for a half hour to buy a coffee. If I want to give you money, please make it easy for me. Same goes with offering free support. I enjoy doing it, as I learn from every instance, but please make it easy for me to do. I was raised in a forum enivornment, and I prefer them so far. Not ruling out the newsgroups, but not rushing back there either.

Personally I like the email notifs. Do the newsgroups have those? Anne & Bob, maybe you should post a quick guide to posting in the newsgroups! :rotlaugh:

[Anne Troy]

A good for instance of my complaint is here:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.docmanagement/browse_frm/thread/e99ff66d5861ce76/aff63aef0809f296?lnk=raot#aff63aef0809f296

Ken: I will find you the article I read that was so helpful to me. Also, you now have a link to Google's interface, which isn't half bad either.

[Anne Troy]

Here it is: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/community/columns/newsgroups.mspx

[XL-Dennis]

Bob,



Well that is a high principle,


Well, I know and I've also been banned on another forum due to this stand. I do respect that ranking systems exist and also that they are accepted around the world but in Sweden (at least that's my personal opinion) we are not used to apply different kind of ranking systems.



...How many do you see who move from those who ask to to those who answer, or even how many times do you see someone repeatedly ask the same sort of question, never moving on...


It's absolutely true and this may in the long run defeat the purpose with all forums and knowledgeable people find other channelse like blogs (like Dick's DDE).



...I would add an endorsement of Gibbo175 here http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/clap.gif, who IMO has actively sought to improve by asking smart questions...


Very kind of You to mention Gibbo as being a good representant of how things should be. Kudos to Gibbo too and perhaps that's why we try a little bit extra to help members like him as it feel genuine.



I don't see the originality that I do with my afore-mentioned people, or the sheer intelligence of someone like Harlan Grove, David Braden or Laurent Longre.


Originality tend to move things ahead and establish new and better approaches and solutions so in that way we who don't frequent NGs surely miss interesting parts.

BTW, I believe You missed Ture Magnusson, a country men to me, who I also believe still is MVP. I've only seen his post at EE so I can't say anything about his contributions to the NGs but some of the them are very good.

Anne,
(Check out Your e-mail later this evening Your time ;) )

As for the attitude You point I believe we see it in all kind of group of people. Most people are kind and polite while other leave much to wish. But that's part of the life and despite the situation You will be able to kick back in case You accept the coming nomination. Being skilled and knowledgeable does not imply that the person behind it is good so the best way is to check who's in Your personal addressbook and not ;).

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Bob Phillips]

Agreed, it has turned interesting http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif.


On the MVP's, I have met some stellar MVP's who are just fantastic people. Bill Jelen and Jon Peltier are two who come to mind. Both talented and friendly as well. I have also met their complete counterparts as well. One in particular I will never look at as anything but arrogant, rude and self centered, and I flat out refuse to post anything in a thread in which he has been involved. There is no question in my mind that he has some incredible techinical skill, but his attitude destroys my respect for him.

I know one of those as well. It would be interesting if it were the same.


I'll liken this to a retail experience I've had in the past where I had to line up for a half hour to buy a coffee. If I want to give you money, please make it easy for me. Same goes with offering free support. I enjoy doing it, as I learn from every instance, but please make it easy for me to do. I was raised in a forum enivornment, and I prefer them so far.

It' is clearly a generation thing Ken. I was raised on teletypes, and command lines, so I like quick, responsive environments, ,ayne quirky, not so much the big GUIs. I bet you are a mouse guy, I am a keyboard fella http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif.


Personally I like the email notifs. Do the newsgroups have those? Anne & Bob, maybe you should post a quick guide to posting in the newsgroups! :rotlaugh:

No email notifi9cation. Have to give the write-up some thought http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/pray2.gif

[Ken Puls]

It' is clearly a generation thing Ken. I was raised on teletypes, and command lines, so I like quick, responsive environments, ,ayne quirky, not so much the big GUIs. I bet you are a mouse guy, I am a keyboard fella http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif.

A tele-what? :rotlaugh:

Seriously, the first computer I ever played with (besides an Atari 2600) was an AppleII, I think. I've programmed on Apples (back in school) and Commodore 64 (same time frame), and was quite comfortable in DOS. I still find that there are days that I open up a command prompt as it's easier to do some things that way than through GUI. I believe that I'm part of the first generation who was raised on computers, although desktop PC's were in their infancy in my youth.

I use a mouse, indeed, but I try to keep on top of keyboard shortcuts too. Maximize both worlds, I guess. (I prefer the pretty GUI interface though ;) )

Thanks for the links, Anne. I'll try and see if I can play around with those some point soon...

[Bob Phillips]

I do respect that ranking systems exist and also that they are accepted around the world but in Sweden (at least that's my personal opinion) we are not used to apply different kind of ranking systems.

Sweden is very different to most of the rest of the world (and that is not meant in a detrimental way http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif).


It's absolutely true and this may in the long run defeat the purpose with all forums and knowledgeable people find other channels like blogs (like Dick's DDE).

I agree, but I admit I have never figured out how to become a contributor on Dick's site. I met him recently and should have asked then, how do you sign-up?


Originality tend to move things ahead and establish new and better approaches and solutions so in that way we who don't frequent NGs surely miss interesting parts.

I think that is true. As an example, the evolution of SUMPRODUCT into the incredibly useful function it is today, and using INDIRECT(ROW to setup an array of numbers, are two things that the NGs have driven, and the rest of the world has benefitted from.


BTW, I believe You missed Ture Magnusson, a country men to me, who I also believe still is MVP. I've only seen his post at EE so I can't say anything about his contributions to the NGs but some of the them are very good.

No offence to Ture, I know of him, and I know that he is still an MVP, but I am not familiar with his work. I very rarely visit EE, not my kind of forum, so I don't come across him very often. There are bound to be many other good people I have missed, but there are also many who are lauded who are nothing special IMO.

[TonyJollans]

What an interesting discussion.

I've only been playing in the NGs for a month or so and I have found some of them to be very busy which, naturally, means questions disappear fairly quickly. It also means there is a wide variety of questions (including many incomprehensible and bizarre ones) so one can pick and choose.

I do answer easy ones but like to go for the (to me) interesting ones - and, from them, learn something, It is the learning something that I find the most rewarding feature of all the forums I take part in - that's not to say that I don't also like helping people of course. I'm not chasing awards (although I daresay some are) - and kind of resent the suggestion that I might be, although it's a moot point as I'm not good enough anyway. There is a difference at EE in that the subject of points comes up regularly (I can give you more points, can I have my points back, etc) and is a central feature of the site (so much so as to have driven me off it) whereas the subject of getting any reward is never mentioned in the NGs - or here, or in many other forums.

It is interesting to note different posters' attitudes and ways of answering. I don't know about all the people mentioned in this thread because I have only been on Word NGs but, although I have seen the odd abrupt comment, no-one has ever been in the slightest bit unkind to me. There isn't anything like as much banter there as in forums like VBAX but there is some and, having been shown how to use them via OE (the web interface is painful), I am happy to play. I have never met an MVP personally (perhaps I just don't get out enough) but those I have interacted with have been above reproach in their exchanges with me.

[Bob Phillips]

A good for instance of my complaint is here:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.docmanagement/browse_frm/thread/e99ff66d5861ce76/aff63aef0809f296?lnk=raot#aff63aef0809f296


Ouch!!!

But what do you expect, it's Word isn't it. When you have to work with an inferior Excel add-in like Word, it does get one tetchy http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/devil.gif

[Ken Puls]

When you have to work with an inferior Excel add-in like Word, it does get one tetchy http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/devil.gif

ROTFLMAO!

[Zack Barresse]

ROFL!!!

Replied. :D

[XL-Dennis]

Bob,

No offense taken and I'm just glad that someone at least have a hint about the difference in the cultures. This is also reflected in my way so I think that's the way it is ;)

Check out Your PM here later about Dick's blog.

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Anne Troy]

and kind of resent the suggestion that I might be, although it's a moot point as I'm not good enough anyway

The first part of the quote above is what I think really gets me a lot...yes, they seem to assume this. Now, the second part is total BS. You are just as good as any one of them--I guarantee it--and better than others!

[TonyJollans]

The first part of the quote above is what I think really gets me a lot...yes, they seem to assume this. Now, the second part is total BS. You are just as good as any one of them--I guarantee it--and better than others!
Maybe I should have said knowledgeable. Some of the folks there are much more familiar with many aspects of Word than I am.


When you have to work with an inferior Excel add-in like Word,
Just what I expect from those who know Excel and just can't get their head round a comprehensive product like Word. Excel is just a big calculator - I've never owned nor had a need for a calculator. Word has a calculator built in but it's of such little consequence that it's well hidden and most people don't know it's there. Word, of course, has so much more as well. :D

[mdmackillop]

Hi Tony,
Re the Word calculator, I recall in an early version you could add a columm of figures by right click and select. Do you know if that is still possible?
Regards
Malcolm

[TonyJollans]

Hi Malcolm,

LOL - 'tis true, most people don't know about it.

ToolsCalculate is the critter. It's available under Tools > Customize > Commands > All Commands and you can put it on whatever menu you want.

[Anne Troy]

GET 'EM, Tone!!

[Ken Puls]

Too funny...

When someone asks me a math question, I actually have opened Excel on my PC before I even think of reaching for the calculator which always sits on my desk... :rotlaugh: Now Word? Can't ever see that happening!

[XL-Dennis]

Hi,

If Excel is used as a storage place for large amount of data then I see no reason why Word is used as a calculator or as a less advanced spreadsheet. Let me know if someone is using MS Access for word processing and also if someone is using Powerpoint to write C#-code then I'm very interested to take part of it.:rofl:

Since there are some members here who frequent both forums as well as the NGs I take the chance to ask the following questions:

#1 Does the core technical issues that OP ask for solution for differ and if so
in what way?

#2 Does the average OP's level of knowledge differ?

#3 Does the average quality on the threads differ?

Kind regards,
Dennis

[brettdj]

Most try their hand in the NGs at one time or another, but shy off when they see that theyu are nothing out of the ordinary (remember Dave Hawley's experience!). I don't see the originality that I do with my afore-mentioned people, or the sheer intelligence of someone like Harlan Grove, David Braden or Laurent Longre.
A while ago I came accross that Dave Hawley v MVP Team America debate and I had this guilty kind of feeling - like I should feel bad for watching the excel NG equivalent of a train smash

There aren't too many "originals" fullstop. Stephen Bullen, David Hager, Jon Peltier, Ivan Moala, Colo & Harlan Grove come to mind as cutting edge type pioneers. I've had brief dealings with John Walkenbach and Bob Ulmus and I found both of them impressive experts and people. Tom Urtis always makes a lot of sense, Dick Kusleika has provided a service to the Excel community with Dicks Blog, and JK Pietrerse & Bill Manville deserve plaudits for their addins.

And that ends my Hollwood speech introducing "Best of Excel Nominees" before I add anyone else, and then cause inadvertent offence by leaving someone out

There are also some MVP's that make me think the main entrance criteria must be NG volume over quality, originality or complete mastery of the Excel Application. And I can't understand why Dennis and Suat don't have MVP next to their names - unless they don't want it

But ... I'm rapt that it looks like Anne will join the list:clap:

Cheers

Dave

[mdmackillop]

Thanks Tony,
I don't think I would ever have found that. It's not as neat as the "old way" but it'll still save me copying and pasting into Excel.
Regards
Malcolm

[XL-Dennis]

Dave,

During the years I've found out and also concluded that the only thing that really matter in the long run is Your general attitude towards knowledge and to share knowledge.

Personally I don't care if You're a usual user or a MVP or what so ever as if You have some interesting information to share and discuss I'm willing to listen and participate as well as sharing my pieces of knowledge.

I fully agree with You in general terms: Quantity can never replace quality :)

Kind regards,
Dennis

[TonyJollans]

Dennis,

Of course all Office apps can do all sorts of things and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. There is some good natured banter here and in other places but if I *had* to categorise it I would say there is an element of elitism (which can only be borne of ignorance) more prevalent amongst Excel users than others. If some people don't like Word (or PowerPoint or whatever) that's their problem - I have found it far more interesting than Excel - chacun a son gout.

As for your questions my own impressions are:

#1. I don't think it really differs - but the much busier newsgroups inevitably cover more topics.

#2. No I don't think so - but the nature of the newsgroups is more one of short questions and answers rather than discussions about problems and some posts seem devoid of context which might help. Also most web forums ban or discourage certain types of posts (homework etc) which do appear in the ngs.

#3. Yes, I think so. See #2 - short questions and answers tend to leave most threads with little value after the event. I wouldn't go to the newsgroups looking to find information - if I wanted to know something I would just ask. If I came to VBAX and searched I might find not only what I wanted to know but also a lot of good background information with it.

[XL-Dennis]

Tony,



if I *had* to categorise it I would say there is an element of elitism (which can only be borne of ignorance) more prevalent amongst Excel users than others


Yes, I can admit that this is the case which may also explain the tremendous large Excel-files that are happily distributed within companies. At some companies, who are customers to me, Excel is #1 tool and my primarily work is not target to support it rather to break apart the information and the datastorage etc and to use other softwares as well!

In management account a basic rules says:
Different costs for different purposes

In this context I would say:
Different tools for different purposes.

I know some well known Excel people that hardly can open Word, PowerPoint or Access and who belive MySQL is a new SQL language under the GPL-terms.

Interesting answers You bring. When I put together what You conclude and what Bob previously mentioned the only different seems to be that, as for Excel, a small group of knowledgeable people are active in the NGs. It means that only a small fraction of all the post is of interest.

Thanks for Your input :)

Kind regards,
Dennis

[shades]

As a resident old codger and sometimes participant, I tried NGs for Excel a couple of times, and didn't like the environment. Forums work better for me. Maybe because some recognize the feeble-ness of old people, and take pity.

In my interactions through forums/email/chat, Bill Jelen, Anne, Dennis, Starl, Dave Hawley, Zack, WillR, Andy Pope, etc. come to mind [as well as many more] as very helpful and encouraging (over the past 4 years that I have visited forums). The tenor of the forums, like at VBAX, MrExcel, Ozgrid, and more recently JMT, is exactly the environment I appreciate. As for knowledge, Aladin at MrExcel is probably one of the best for formulas that I have come across.

I know that I have left out many names, but this isn't intended to be exclusive. All of you contribute to a great learning place.

Thanks to all of you.

Rich

[Bob Phillips]

Interesting answers You bring. When I put together what You conclude and what Bob previously mentioned the only different seems to be that, as for Excel, a small group of knowledgeable people are active in the NGs. It means that only a small fraction of all the post is of interest.

But that is just as true of the other forums as of the NGs. I have only read one thing since I have been with VBAX that I thought was of interest and was new to, and I later found a previous item addressing exactly the same point elsewhere (and that is not a criticism of VBAX, just an observation). On the NGs, I found something today, using Excel4Macros, which I knew but don't use, and so it reminded me to use more frequently (assuming MS don't ditch in Office12).

As my dear friend Harlan Grove (who incidentally leaves Aladin miles behind when it comes to formula originality, as does Domenic and Daniel Mather IMO) says, there is nothing new in the NGs, and that applies equally to all the forums I visit. I see our purpose of facilitating each new generation of product users that come along, educating them in the functionality and the ability to help themselves, even though that might mean that we re-hash things occasionally (often?).

BTW, my comment about Word was a joke. I actually know how to use Word, although I can't admit to liking it (obscure object model, and it really messes with bullets, and as for tables !!!), but it is better for minutes than Excel; Dennis knows that I abhor the over-use that people put Excel to when they should be using a database (although preferably not Access, but then again Access12 looks interesting); I don't like Powerpoint (still prefer Freelance); hate MS Project (haven't tried the new Enterprise version yet); but love Visio (but again not its object model). At heart I am still an old VBer dabbling with Office http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif

[TonyJollans]

Hi Bob,

I do realise your comment was a joke - as I said, there is much banter in this vein, here and elsewhere. As you know Word, I know Excel (although I really came to it from Access).

We are all different and I find the manipulation of freeform data more interesting than working with the relative rigidity of Excel. The freeform nature of Word data inevitably gives rise to a more complex object model than that of Excel. Complex doesn't necessarily mean obscure, however, and I think many people use the supposed obscurity as an excuse for not trying to understand. Of course some things in Word don't work properly - some things in Excel don't work properly either.

I, too, am just an old dabbler - but don't have the VB background. :)

[Anne Troy]

Bob: Rest assured, your comment got huge laughs. It was properly Excel-Geek-arrogant, and utterly hilarious. Wish I'd have said it about Excel. :D

[Bob Phillips]

We are all different and I find the manipulation of freeform data more interesting than working with the relative rigidity of Excel. The freeform nature of Word data inevitably gives rise to a more complex object model than that of Excel. Complex doesn't necessarily mean obscure, however, and I think many people use the supposed obscurity as an excuse for not trying to understand. Of course some things in Word don't work properly - some things in Excel don't work properly either.

I agree that Excel is more rigid, but, with your Access background, you must appreciate that with datasets that is really a necessity (ever tried using a Lotus Notes database? nightmare).

One thing I thought of after I wrote my last post was the reason that Excel is the most used app out of the suite is not because of its functionality or that it necessarily does its job better than the other apps, but rather it inherently works on datasets. Let's be honest, neither PowerPoint nor Word are built to handle data to any great degree. Access can, but why move your data from an Oracle database to an Access one, when their is an easier, more flexible tool, Excel. For most organisations, that is the critical factor, they have vast amounts of data that has untold value if only they could get at it. To my mind, that is why Excel is so successful, and why Excel has made greater functional strides than any of the other office apps. That looks set to continue into 12 as well, apart form what I would call the office style (ribbon, chunks, etc.) the app that has the greatest amount of work and increased functionality is ... yes, Excel.

Of course, that does lead to abuse as we all know, which will only increase with 1M+ rows http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/112.gif, but so is Word (using it to calculate! http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/devil.gif).

The only reason that I major in Excel is that when I came to VBA, from VB, I could think of things to automate in Excel, I couldn't with Word or Powerpoint (and I had no use for Access at all).

[shades]

As my dear friend Harlan Grove (who incidentally leaves Aladin miles behind when it comes to formula originality, as does Domenic and Daniel Mather IMO) says, there is nothing new in the NGs, and that applies equally to all the forums I visit.

I guess that shows how little I have visited the NGs, since I know that Harlan basically resides there. And illustrates how much MORE I have to learn - but for an old codger I'm running out of time.:hi:

[XL-Dennis]

Harlan Grove is an exceptionell and clever man when it comes to all kind of formulas and calculations with several different kind of spreadsheets.

I recently read his post here about Excel 12:
http://blogs.msdn.com/excel/archive/2005/10/25/484915.aspx#comments

Word, Outlook and Excel's have propably the most advanced object models. When speaking about the most logical object models I believe Excel has it due to it's clear hierarchy structure. When we compare other MSFT softwares with them they are all primitive (the other softwares!). However, compared with many other vendors softwares they are in general better as they at least allow us to access an object model!



I see our purpose of facilitating each new generation of product users that come along, educating them in the functionality and the ability to help themselves, even though that might mean that we re-hash things occasionally (often?).


That's absolutely true but why does so very few take part of the growing source of collective knowledge? After all, today there exist so many search engines and also a lot of good sites.



At heart I am still an old VBer dabbling with Office http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif




I , too, am just an old dabbler - but don't have the VB background. http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif


Sounds great to me ;)

Coding is only one part and I know that Anne as well as other have a feeling of being disqualified due to the lack of coding. I don't get it as I belive that everyone with some insight and knowledge of the tools can help other users a lot ;)

Personally I'm total lost due to all new versions that hit the market:
- Visual Studio 2005 with VSTO 2.0
- SQL Server 2005
- Beta of Windows Vista
- Information about the coming new Office version
- New version of Sharepoint
- New softwares like Business Scorecard Manager:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-gb/FX012225041033.aspx

A funny thing is that MSFT use the Business Intelligence (BI) term like many many consultant business do today. I use Decision Support System (DSS) for the same thing (invented some time in the mid 70's) and I also know that many Excel-applications in use today are considered to be DSS without having other fancy softwares ;)

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Zack Barresse]

There are also some MVP's that make me think the main entrance criteria must be NG volume over quality, originality or complete mastery of the Excel Application. And I can't understand why Dennis and Suat don't have MVP next to their names - unless they don't want it
Can't say you're wrong (unless they have declined). Think of it this way, Microsoft saves money by having the MVP program. For every MVP that is nominated/accepted, that is one less position that MS feels they have to assign (e.g. Tech Support) whereby saving the almighty $$. Of course, this may not always be the case, but - I believe - part of it.


As my dear friend Harlan Grove (who incidentally leaves Aladin miles behind when it comes to formula originality, as does Domenic and Daniel Mather IMO) says..
I remember when Domenic was first learning these formulas. He would pop up in TOE and MrExcel, then I started seeing him post to the NG's. It was Aladin (and some others) who taught him how to use them. I wouldn't say he has far surpassed Aladin or Harlan. I see them all on the same playing field, just choosing to participate in different ways and to different posts; sure styles are different too.

Of course, if (by my line of thinking) MS is saving money by having this MVP program, then they are far shy of what they should have for MVP's. We all know, as most of us are here in the "trenches" day after day, a lot of people post solutions that are never recognized by MS as an MVP. Does this mean that they are not equal to or surpass the requirements? No, not at all. I think part of it is who you know as well, which can be a sad case, but as is with life sometimes.

Tony, to you specifically: You are MVP material. That doesn't mean you are not an MVP because you are not good enough, it means you have not been exposed to the same set of circumstances as other MVP's have. It is, after all, just a title and not a mark of who you are or what you can achieve. Put it this way, if I were a Word MVP then I would nominate you. Besides you and fumei, I know nobody else who can come close to your level of knowledge and help.

As I'd rather hijack this thread than Jo's, I still don't want to ramble on about things. I have been enjoying the banter and discussion on this thread. Keep it up my friends. :thumb

[Bob Phillips]

Think of it this way, Microsoft saves money by having the MVP program. For every MVP that is nominated/accepted, that is one less position that MS feels they have to assign (e.g. Tech Support) whereby saving the almighty $$. Of course, this may not always be the case, but - I believe - part of it.

Actually it is closer to 3 MVPs per employed support person. Of course MS gets something out of it, but so does the user community. Do you really belive that a support person on the end of a phone would offer as solid and as comprehensive advice as is available elsewhere. I have to say that the free support that we offer is a win-win situation, we like giving it, users benefit from it, and so MS saves a bit, I can live with that.


I remember when Domenic was first learning these formulas. He would pop up in TOE and MrExcel, then I started seeing him post to the NG's. It was Aladin (and some others) who taught him how to use them. I wouldn't say he has far surpassed Aladin or Harlan. I see them all on the same playing field, just choosing to participate in different ways and to different posts; sure styles are different too.

Well we all have to learn, and Domenic has obviously learnt well. I didn't suggest that he was far surpassing, but IMO he is better. Aladin is a very good communicator/teacher, but I don't see much originality there, just a few hobby-horses, such as that over-blown use of 9.99999999999999E307, and his prediliction against VLOOKUP, whereas Domenic is showing some real craetive stuff. He may settle into a groove, but at the moment, he is good. And Daniel Mather is even better IMO. But none are as good as Harlan, who does far surpass Aladin, and anyone else I can think of, with the sheer force of his intellect and his desire to understand the fundamentals of the tool as well as just how it works.


Of course, if (by my line of thinking) MS is saving money by having this MVP program, then they are far shy of what they should have for MVP's. We all know, as most of us are here in the "trenches" day after day, a lot of people post solutions that are never recognized by MS as an MVP. Does this mean that they are not equal to or surpass the requirements?

Are you saying that the MVPs aren't up to it, and that the people elsewhere are better? If so, I have to disagree there as I have said previously in this thread. It is true that most MVPs seem to originate from the NGs, but that is still where the vast majority of questions by far are answered. I have made 1,200 posting here since April, Dave Peterson made 1,600 last month alone in the NGs. We are talking different volumes, so are you surprised where MS looks first, it is just pure commercialism, which I thought all Americans understood. The fact that people like Colo, Bill Jelen and so on, people who don't frequent the NGs, are MVPs means that it is not exclusive any more, but it will remain the top driver whilst it is the biggest forum.

[TonyJollans]

I agree that Excel is more rigid, but, with your Access background, you must appreciate that with datasets that is really a necessity (ever tried using a Lotus Notes database? nightmare).

One thing I thought of after I wrote my last post was the reason that Excel is the most used app out of the suite is not because of its functionality or that it necessarily does its job better than the other apps, but rather it inherently works on datasets. Let's be honest, neither PowerPoint nor Word are built to handle data to any great degree. Access can, but why move your data from an Oracle database to an Access one, when their is an easier, more flexible tool, Excel. For most organisations, that is the critical factor, they have vast amounts of data that has untold value if only they could get at it. To my mind, that is why Excel is so successful, and why Excel has made greater functional strides than any of the other office apps. That looks set to continue into 12 as well, apart form what I would call the office style (ribbon, chunks, etc.) the app that has the greatest amount of work and increased functionality is ... yes, Excel.

Of course, that does lead to abuse as we all know, which will only increase with 1M+ rows http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/112.gif, but so is Word (using it to calculate! http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/devil.gif).

The only reason that I major in Excel is that when I came to VBA, from VB, I could think of things to automate in Excel, I couldn't with Word or Powerpoint (and I had no use for Access at all).

Never worked with Lotus Notes. Sounds like I don't want to.

I think the one point you've missed is that Excel is available on virtually every corporate desktop and so the marginal cost of using it is virtually nil which gives it such a great edge from the point of view of the budget holder that it is often used where other apps would perhaps be more suitable.

I'm not sure any Office app really provides a good interface for working with datasets - but Excel and Access do work with relational databases.

Alright, I admit it - Word is not the best calculator ever :)

[Zack Barresse]

Are you saying that the MVPs aren't up to it, and that the people elsewhere are better?
No, not saying that whatsoever.


.. it is just pure commercialism, which I thought all Americans understood.
Nope, not all. We [Americans] are too easily grouped into stereotypes because of our news media and some loud mouth people (who do get rather annoying). ;)


The fact that people like Colo, Bill Jelen and so on, people who don't frequent the NGs, are MVPs means that it is not exclusive any more, but it will remain the top driver whilst it is the biggest forum.
Yes, understood. In the same breath, I think we all agree that quality over-rides quantity. ;)

[brettdj]

When it comes to creative originality, I wonder how far exacty a data shuffling tool can be driven

I remember when Domenic was first learning these formulas. He would pop up in TOE and MrExcel, then I started seeing him post to the NG's. It was Aladin (and some others) who taught him how to use them. I wouldn't say he has far surpassed Aladin or Harlan. I see them all on the same playing field, just choosing to participate in different ways and to different posts; sure styles are different too.Agreed. IMHO its impossible to compare the ability of array formula exponents.

And Zack, great call on the tendency of non-Americans to lump Americans into one big bucket, you guys suffer unfairly at times for that.

[XL-Dennis]

And Zack, great call on the tendency of non-Americans to lump Americans into one big bucket, you guys suffer unfairly at times for that.


Isn't that true the opposite as well?

It seems that many Americans believe that Europe is one nation only...

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Ken Wright]

Word has a calculator built in but it's of such little consequence that it's well hidden and most people don't know it's there. Word, of course, has so much more as well.



Blinking text for one - How can Excel hope to compete eh Tony???? <g>

Regards
Ken..............

[Ken Wright]

But none are as good as Harlan, who does far surpass Aladin, and anyone else I can think of, with the sheer force of his intellect and his desire to understand the fundamentals of the tool as well as just how it works.

Aint that the truth!!!

Harlan rubs a lot of people up the wrong way with how he comes across, but he still remains to me probably one of the most brilliant minds I have been fortunate enough to come across. I think the technical knowledge that he has and displays regularly is simply staggering, and I personally keep most of the posts from him that I come across as reference material.

Regards
Ken...............

[Anne Troy]

Ahhh... there's my FAVORITE Excel MVP!! Ken is definitely not in that group of less-than-friendlys. :)

[Ken Wright]

:hi: Helloooooooooooooo :)

[TonyJollans]

Ken,

How nice to see you!

You mean Excel can't even make text blink? How do you get the user's attention?

Before colour terminals (yes, I am old) blinking was one of very few ways of differentiating something on screen but even then it was a major irritant and considered bad form. If I come across it these days I just move on straight away.

There was a thread on TT a while back where somebody wanted to make something flash on screen (on a UserForm if I remember) and everybody was telling the OP not to do it until we eventually found out that it was some sort of safety system in a nuclear institution - so it does have an occasional valid use. :)

[Ken Wright]

ROTFLMAO - I remember that thread. We all gave the OP a hard time about it, and then when he explained what it was for, we're all trying to help him make the damn text blink, and also find out if the installation was near where we lived :-)

[Bob Phillips]

There was a thread on TT a while back where somebody wanted to make something flash on screen (on a UserForm if I remember) and everybody was telling the OP not to do it until we eventually found out that it was some sort of safety system in a nuclear institution - so it does have an occasional valid use.

God help us if anybody runs a nuclear safety system on Excel. They should be locked up and throw away the key for incompetence endangering the public, stupidity, and for being the in the nuclear indutstry!

[XL-Dennis]

Bob - Using a computer at all is dangerous ;)

Kind regards,
Dennis

[Zack Barresse]

ROFL!! That is a hilarious story. Beautiful. :yes



Isn't that true the opposite as well?

It seems that many Americans believe that Europe is one nation only...
Quite true Dennis. So, while we're at it, we'll mention the same goes for Australia, Asia, Antarctica, Africa, South America.. it goes for everybody. The only reason I mentioned the US of A was it was specifically mentioned. I know Bob didn't mean for this to blow up to an issue, so I don't want it to be thought of that way. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it. :whistle:

Ken: Nice to see you again! :cool:

[Bob Phillips]

The only reason I mentioned the US of A was it was specifically mentioned. I know Bob didn't mean for this to blow up to an issue, so I don't want it to be thought of that way. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it. :whistle:

Quite right, especially as it was raised on a particular aspect of the American way that I don't have a problem with, namely capitalism (I have many issues with rampant capitalism, but not capitalism per se). But Zack, I would also raise another commendibale American trait, you have a right to say what you like, and I will defend you in that regardless, even if you diss me in the process http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/023.gif

[Zack Barresse]

Well I certainly hope I don't diss you! In any process! I have great respect for you, and for all - especially those who have contributed for this thread. (Hope you didn't take offense to my post(s) xld.)

[TonyJollans]

even if you diss me in the processI take offence at the term "diss". Diss is my local town, and a very pretty place it is too; its name should not be taken in vain.

Before anyone replies - I am jesting (about taking offence, not about the town).

[Anne Troy]

Tony: Get to bed!

[TonyJollans]

I went! :sleeping:

[brettdj]

ROFL!! That is a hilarious story. Beautiful. :yes



Quite true Dennis. So, while we're at it, we'll mention the same goes for Australia, Asia, Antarctica, Africa, South America.. it goes for everybody. The only reason I mentioned the US of A was it was specifically mentioned. I know Bob didn't mean for this to blow up to an issue, so I don't want it to be thought of that way. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it. :whistle:

Ken: Nice to see you again! :cool:

errr Zack .... Australia is one country :whip

[Bob Phillips]

(Hope you didn't take offense to my post(s) xld.)

I most certainly did not Zack. As I keep saying, if HG cannot offend me, you have no chance http://vbaexpress.com/forum/images/smilies/001.gif