Should you give out free coding to co-workers without being compensated for it?

[malik641]

This is the dilema at my job. I work at an engineering company where we design/engineer pools and I'm a designer using AutoCAD. When I was hired I was on a probational period, and then after 90 days I had a review and a raise (not as much as I was looking for). The review happened recently with my supervisor and the VP of the company. In the review I was explaining to the VP about the small procedures I wrote to help my production, and he asked if anyone else had these tools. I told him no, not yet...and he says "Share the wealth" and I responded with "Well, shouldn't I be paid accordingly? If I have this type of knowledge and nobody else at my job does, shouldn't I be compensated for it?" And he goes on this whole spiel about WIIFM (what's in it for me) and how that's not being a team player and blah blah blah.

Now, I have no problem sharing the small procedures w/ my co-workers, but I have some ideas for the future that will be much bigger projects. And these people are expecting me to just give it away at my job when I'm being paid the same (or relatively close to) my fellow co-workers? In my opinion, I don't think so. Why should I spend my free time, hard work, and studies just to give these things out for free and not be compensated for it?

Maybe I'm just being bitter, but I'd like to hear everyone else's opinion. Am I wrong about this?

[geekgirlau]

It's a difficult one Joseph, and sometimes it comes down to the company and team you're working with.

I'm lucky enough at the moment to be working with a team where we all share code and ideas. We're a mixture of contractors and permanent staff, all developers, and all with strengths in different areas. The lack of ego and one-upmanship in this environment makes it a pleasure to come to work.

Personally I would lean towards sharing the code, but don't do it as the invisible man. Document all of the tools that you have shared along with your estimate of the productivity gains that resulted from the use of these tools. With the larger projects, put forward a formal business case for each project. What you then have is evidence that these ideas came from you, and great leverage in terms of your next pay review.

In fact, why not promote what you are doing within the company? If your employer has any sort of recognition scheme going, make sure your work is constantly being put forward.

[Ken Puls]

Joseph,

The other thing you may want to do is just ask your boss flat out... "If I could save the company $x.xx per year, would I be compensated for it? Don't give your ideas away at that point, but make sure that the sum is large enough to warrant their attention. If they say yes, THEN put forward the formal proposal, and how you expect the payoff to be measured.

Personally, I code for the enjoyment of it, and give away anything to my co-workers... so long as it is developed on the job. If that's the case, then it is work property. If I do it at home, however, the rights to it remain mine. Hard to prove, but I'm lucky enough to have a great boss who gives me great flexibility.

Best of luck to you... :)

[brettdj]

Every office has its Excel guru - but I bet the guru never gets an direct additional $ for his/her skills. What they do get is their colleagues appreciation, and a reputation for being switched on, that can be worth a lot come remuneration time

[Sir Babydum GBE]

Joseph,

It's a good question you ask and for once I think I'll give a serious answer!

Your employer pays you money in exchange for your knowledge and abilities. They may well have picked you over somebody else precisely because you have the skills that you refer to in your post. You for your part agree to share your knowledge in a productive way and your employer will pay you in good faith that you are doing just that.

An employer will also normally expect its employees to share best practice - and that expectation is part and parcel of the deal.

To illustrate: If I were an employer and knew that you worked twice as quickly as most other people, I would not think it reasonable of you if you deliberately slowed down simply because you were being paid the same as your colleagues. I could choose to offer you more money of course, or you could take the initiative and say that you would like to change the terms of your contract. Both of those things are fine because they are done decently and by arrangement. If you are unhappy with the offered terms of your employment, then the ball is in your court to not accept the offer in the first place.

That's how I feel and obviously there are other factors that can come into play that might demand a different response.

[lucas]

Who hit Babydum in the head? That post is so unlike him that I think it must be an imposter.

[Sir Babydum GBE]

Who hit Babydum in the head? That post is so unlike him that I think it must be an imposter.I was hit on the head as it happens by an intergalactic piece of cutlery that failed to burn up properly on entry to the Earth's atmosphere. I've recovered now though, and feel I can give the OP the answer he so rightly deserves:

The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one. Harrop's book, The Barefaced Cheek of Employers, states: "The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one - we recommend that you steal it back". This can be done by various means. In the case of code - not only should you withhold your knowledge from your employer, you should write code that takes twice as long to do half the job. This effectively saves you five eight sixteenths of the time you would have spent slaving away for a pittance, and you can use such saved time to write hate mail and make paper aeroplanes out of paper. If you do not want to make aeroplanes, you can do something else instead*


*this does not affect your statutory rights hardly at all

[lucas]

That's more what I expected......welcome back

[Killian]

... he says "Share the wealth"... "he" says!? Wasn't that, like, EXACTLY the point you were raising? I've somehow already formed a pretty low opinion of the VP - hasty I know - but if a conversation with him about the potential for improving his business processes involves a "spiel" about WIIFM and how that's not being a team player, then I'm afraid I'm left with little option.

Am I wrong about this?Well if you wrote your production tools on your own time, then no, not at all. But I think Ken's made the point; If you can frame the use of your work in the context of the production environment and demonstrate that the business will get some financial benefit (even if it's not direct), then it's not unresonable to suggest that such a contribution should be recognised by the business. I guess the form of that recognition is open to discussion and negotiation.

Many companies have incentive/award schemes to cover situations like this. Those that don't must rely on thier senior managers to make sure the employees feel like they'ye working in partnership with them rather than having to haggle with them for every little thing as if you're a supplier. I suppose you can't really blame a VP for going straight for the "quick win" (something for nothing) but it doesn't strike me that he chose the most elegant way to address to the situation.

[ALe]

That's what happens to me.
The fact I'm able to write code helps me to see new things. I mean, often I have the opportunity to work on a collegue's project because of my PC skills. He sees my codes, I see his projects. I learned a lot of new things in this way.

[XLGibbs]

You could do what I do, and pass along procedures that need your "help" every so often to work properly. ;)

Anyways, it is tricky, because if you were hired to do a job, and you can do things that improve everyone's efficiency, it should be noted in your reviews and such. If commensurate compensation does not come along, it may not be a good fit..

[malik641]

Hey everyone, and thanks for the replies :thumb

I just want everyone to know that I've been reading this thread constantly and I've read everyone's post the same day that they wrote it. I just didn't want to responde too soon; I wanted everyone's outlook on it first (or at least most of you).


It's a difficult one Joseph, and sometimes it comes down to the company and team you're working with.

I'm lucky enough at the moment to be working with a team where we all share code and ideas. We're a mixture of contractors and permanent staff, all developers, and all with strengths in different areas. The lack of ego and one-upmanship in this environment makes it a pleasure to come to work.

Personally I would lean towards sharing the code, but don't do it as the invisible man. Document all of the tools that you have shared along with your estimate of the productivity gains that resulted from the use of these tools. With the larger projects, put forward a formal business case for each project. What you then have is evidence that these ideas came from you, and great leverage in terms of your next pay review.

In fact, why not promote what you are doing within the company? If your employer has any sort of recognition scheme going, make sure your work is constantly being put forward.The problem at my job is that I'm the only one who knows VBA (and actually, who knows the most about ACAD....and I'm not bragging, that's exactly what everyone told me [there's not too many employees at my company]) so the only thing my co-workers can help me out with is just the idea. I'm the one doing the reading and coding. I like the idea about recording the productivity gains and I'll keep that in my mind. And if I do create tools for my company, I WILL let everyone know who's responsible for them.



The other thing you may want to do is just ask your boss flat out... "If I could save the company $x.xx per year, would I be compensated for it? Don't give your ideas away at that point, but make sure that the sum is large enough to warrant their attention. If they say yes, THEN put forward the formal proposal, and how you expect the payoff to be measured.

Personally, I code for the enjoyment of it, and give away anything to my co-workers... so long as it is developed on the job. If that's the case, then it is work property. If I do it at home, however, the rights to it remain mine. Hard to prove, but I'm lucky enough to have a great boss who gives me great flexibility.I'm curious to know what percentage of the savings I should ask for :think: Will it depend on the amount saved? Or just a fixed percentage? Also, when I was in my review, when the VP was telling me about WIIFM he mentioned a guy who saved $60K and asked "Am I getting a piece of that action?" and the VP said that if he did that for everyone than it wouldn't really save the company money and blah blah blah. And you know, I don't blame that guy...he should've at LEAST received a bonus check (maybe like $5000 or something).

And no, these tools are not developed at my job. And that's what I was trying to propose to them, but they didn't want anything to hear of it. So I have an idea of what I might do, which I'll explain at the end of this post.



Every office has its Excel guru - but I bet the guru never gets an direct additional $ for his/her skills. What they do get is their colleagues appreciation, and a reputation for being switched on, that can be worth a lot come remuneration timeProbably not. But yes, I think it should say something come remuneration time.



It's a good question you ask and for once I think I'll give a serious answer!

Your employer pays you money in exchange for your knowledge and abilities. They may well have picked you over somebody else precisely because you have the skills that you refer to in your post. You for your part agree to share your knowledge in a productive way and your employer will pay you in good faith that you are doing just that.

An employer will also normally expect its employees to share best practice - and that expectation is part and parcel of the deal.

To illustrate: If I were an employer and knew that you worked twice as quickly as most other people, I would not think it reasonable of you if you deliberately slowed down simply because you were being paid the same as your colleagues. I could choose to offer you more money of course, or you could take the initiative and say that you would like to change the terms of your contract. Both of those things are fine because they are done decently and by arrangement. If you are unhappy with the offered terms of your employment, then the ball is in your court to not accept the offer in the first place.

That's how I feel and obviously there are other factors that can come into play that might demand a different response.Just to clarify, I didn't mention that I could write procedures in ACAD when I was first hired. Actually, I didn't know that AutoDesk made some deal with Microsoft to use VBA in their application....until I started working with AutoCAD and looking for books to learn more. And because of the excel VBA experience I have, I had a good head start to ACAD VBA.

I'm unhappy because when I originally started I took a lower offer (mostly because I needed a job, but also) because they told me they needed to see what I can do. And I don't know why they bothered the VP to join the review because he's never watching what I do. Or sees the things I do and can do. I forgot to mention that when we left (my supervisor and me) the meeting, he told me "I know you're worth more than what we gave you, it's just the budget isn't there." So I don't really know where to go from there. I mean, I could go through the whole process of finding a new job....but then I'd have to see if they're willing to work with my school schedule while maintain a 40 hour work week.



I was hit on the head as it happens by an intergalactic piece of cutlery that failed to burn up properly on entry to the Earth's atmosphere. I've recovered now though, and feel I can give the OP the answer he so rightly deserves:

The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one. Harrop's book, The Barefaced Cheek of Employers, states: "The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one - we recommend that you steal it back". This can be done by various means. In the case of code - not only should you withhold your knowledge from your employer, you should write code that takes twice as long to do half the job. This effectively saves you five eight sixteenths of the time you would have spent slaving away for a pittance, and you can use such saved time to write hate mail and make paper aeroplanes out of paper. If you do not want to make aeroplanes, you can do something else instead*

*this does not affect your statutory rights hardly at allI like the paper planes idea. Maybe I'll throw one right at the VP's head.



"he" says!? Wasn't that, like, EXACTLY the point you were raising? I've somehow already formed a pretty low opinion of the VP - hasty I know - but if a conversation with him about the potential for improving his business processes involves a "spiel" about WIIFM and how that's not being a team player, then I'm afraid I'm left with little option.

"Am I wrong about this?"

Well if you wrote your production tools on your own time, then no, not at all. But I think Ken's made the point; If you can frame the use of your work in the context of the production environment and demonstrate that the business will get some financial benefit (even if it's not direct), then it's not unresonable to suggest that such a contribution should be recognised by the business. I guess the form of that recognition is open to discussion and negotiation.

Many companies have incentive/award schemes to cover situations like this. Those that don't must rely on thier senior managers to make sure the employees feel like they'ye working in partnership with them rather than having to haggle with them for every little thing as if you're a supplier. I suppose you can't really blame a VP for going straight for the "quick win" (something for nothing) but it doesn't strike me that he chose the most elegant way to address to the situation.Yes, that was exactly the point I was raising at the review. I became very offended when he went on his "spiel" about WIIFM (this is no exaggeration, BTW. He was talking to me about it for like 5 mins). And he noticed that I didn't exactly like what he said. I also want to mention that I couldn't even haggle 50 cents more outta him...what a jerk. He wouldn't even make a deal with me. It was his way, or the highway. And in my opinion, he doesn't know the kind of worker I really am. If he did, I think he would have changed his opinion. And unfortunately my company doesn't have an incentive/award scheme for this kinda situation.

And no, he didn't choose the most elegant way to address that situation. I just can't wait to get my Bachelor's in ME and a PE license in ME. THEN I'll be making some REAL dough!


That's what happens to me.
The fact I'm able to write code helps me to see new things. I mean, often I have the opportunity to work on a collegue's project because of my PC skills. He sees my codes, I see his projects. I learned a lot of new things in this way.Me too. Except for the project thing.
Hey ALe, we kicked some BOOTAY on the 4th eh? That was an AWESOME game!


You could do what I do, and pass along procedures that need your "help" every so often to work properly. ;)

Anyways, it is tricky, because if you were hired to do a job, and you can do things that improve everyone's efficiency, it should be noted in your reviews and such. If commensurate compensation does not come along, it may not be a good fit..That's a good idea. Makes you sort of an asset to the company.

See, the thing with my review was more about the kind of person I am...not exactly based on my past accomplishments at my job. Which was kinda strange now that I think about it. They didn't even mention about how much I know about AutoCAD or about how much customers like me. It was more like testing to see if I am a diligent worker or not....and they saw that I am, it's just I wanted more because I have more to offer than what they mentioned. They just didn't want to hear anything about it I guess. Maybe it's just not in the budget....which sucks. I don't know.


Anyway this thread is a little more special to me because it's more into my personal life, and that is why I responded to pretty much everyone's response. I appreciate all the input so far, and hope to see more :)


As far as my idea goes, I found a KB entry that deletes a module (I think johnske wrote it). And I think that IF I make tools for my company and freely distribute them, that I'm going to put an expiration date on it. Set for 3 months after my next review. Because if I do all this and at my next review I get another review like this one, then I'm going to quit. And 3 months thereafter, my code will self terminate :devil2: ....Man, I'm so mean. I love it.


I mean, honestly, how much should someone with a good foundation of knowledge in AutoCAD WITH the knowledge of VBA to improve production be paid? I'm just curious, because I know most of you guys get paid to code at your job (or maybe on the side)....so what would you say? I'm not asking for how much you guys make, please don't get the wrong impression here. I'm just looking for a round-about wage for this. I've seen the average drafter fresh outta school with NO experience receive $12-$18. So what do you guys say?

Again, many thanks for the replies. :thumb

P.S. If I were to find a job on the side (like at home) to create excel spreadsheets with automation or ACAD tools, how would I go about finding work?

[XLGibbs]

That can backfire as well (expiration dates) as you would not want to leave on possibly good terms with the company, only to have a subsequent black mark once those things start failing.

At my employer, you get a chance to comment on, or even write part of your own reviews or accomplishments. I ALWAYS make sure I quantify each item with an appropriate identifier such as "Automated highly manual reporting task into a several coded procedures reducing production time from 3 hours to 2 minutes."

That way your efforts can be measured to a dollar amount.

[malik641]

I should've clarified that if I indeed DO end up in good terms that I would not have the expiration date execute. And I do understand that it may place a black mark on me, but it wouldn't really matter to me too much (at least not at this point) because if they want to treat me unfairly, then I'll have the last laugh. And they would also notice the importance I was to the company when losing those tools.

Besides, that's 3 months afterwards...I'm sure I can find another job before then...and if my new job calls the old employer (my current employer now) then they can verify such tools I presented. And they also aren't the most computer savvy...so they may think it's some sort of virus and may not be caused by me.

Also, on the review I too was able to place what accomplishments that I've done ...but I didn't have it exactly measured as you put it. Which I will do next time so thanks for that info :yes

[mvidas]

Sub SecurityCheck()
If CheckExpirationDate = 0 Then
If Not IsEmployee("malik641") Then
SetExpirationDate Date + 90
End If
End If
End Sub
Function IsEmployee(ByVal TheName As String) As Boolean
With CreateObject("outlook.application")
With .CreateItem(0)
With .Recipients.Add(TheName)
.Resolve
IsEmployee = .Resolved
End With
.Close 1
End With
End With
End FunctionAll joking aside, I feel like if I got my job without the education but based on my merits, they expect me to perform. Gain the experience where you are and move on from that.
Matt

[johnske]

This is the dilema at my job. I work at an engineering company where we design/engineer pools and I'm a designer using AutoCAD. When I was hired I was on a probational period, and then after 90 days I had a review and a raise (not as much as I was looking for). The review happened recently with my supervisor and the VP of the company. In the review I was explaining to the VP about the small procedures I wrote to help my production, and he asked if anyone else had these tools. I told him no, not yet...and he says "Share the wealth" and I responded with "Well, shouldn't I be paid accordingly? If I have this type of knowledge and nobody else at my job does, shouldn't I be compensated for it?" And he goes on this whole spiel about WIIFM (what's in it for me) and how that's not being a team player and blah blah blah...

What is this company, somewhere you paid to do some professional work, or an amateur football team?... "team" works both ways, if there is a good player on the team, the team management should pay them more to keep them on the team or run the very real risk of losing them to the opposition, if they want you to "share the wealth", they've got to be prepared to do the same - throwing "team player" at you is the usual crap you get fed when you're being conned into doing something for nothing.

Is what you've done outside your job description? Play hard-ball, draw up a written proposal for the head guy showing (politely) that with the little you've done for them so far they have benefitted by X dollars and if they would like to benefit even more (describe how and by how much - in dollar terms) from your added talents, they should re-negotiate your job description and pay you accordingly. If that doesn't work, just stick to whatever your job description is and look for somewhere better in your spare time...

As far as what you've done so far - that's dodgy. If you've done it during work hours and/or on your companys PC, they probably (legally) now own it and they could always argue that you were in their employ at the time and you were paid for what you did (because you didn't ask for extra pay before doing it would probably weigh on their side).

HTH,
John :)

[lucas]

My 2 cents:
These two quotes are from good folks that are not in the USA. They assume (correctly) that teamwork is for the good of all and that if you contribute to gains made by a company in a substantial way that you should share in that gain.

"he" says!? Wasn't that, like, EXACTLY the point you were raising? I've somehow already formed a pretty low opinion of the VP - hasty I know - but if a conversation with him about the potential for improving his business processes involves a "spiel" about WIIFM and how that's not being a team player, then I'm afraid I'm left with little option.


team" works both ways, if there is a good player on the team, the team management should pay them more to keep them on the team or run the very real risk of losing them to the opposition, if they want you to "share the wealth", they've got to be prepared to do the same - throwing "team player" at you is the usual crap you get fed when you're being conned into doing something for nothing.
Matt and Gibbs are Americans dealing with American companies. Here whoever owns the company reaps all of the benefits.....

All joking aside, I feel like if I got my job without the education but based on my merits, they expect me to perform. Gain the experience where you are and move on from that.
Matt
An American company will let you leave even if you are an asset. They will respond to an ultimatum by shooting theirself in the foot rather than even negotiate as Joseph is finding out.

Here you do the best you can and if you'r not happy then you make a clean break(or you will be punished) and find a new job.

[johnske]

...An American company will let you leave even if you are an asset. They will respond to an ultimatum by shooting theirself in the foot rather than even negotiate as Joseph is finding out...Well, that just sucks... Sounds like you need some good Union representation over there.

OK, if they want to play the "capitalistic bastard" game - I don't know exactly what's involved in doing this in the US - register yourself as a programming or consulting business, tell them that (as you work there) you know what's required for their business and you have a program at home that can be easily modified to make their business more productive (yadda, yadda, yadda) and - take it or leave it - sell it to them at an inflated price :devil2: .

Surely they can't force you to 1) go outside your job description and 2) give them your stuff for free when you have a price on it. :whip

[Ken Puls]

Joseph,


I'm curious to know what percentage of the savings I should ask for :think: Will it depend on the amount saved? Or just a fixed percentage? Also, when I was in my review, when the VP was telling me about WIIFM he mentioned a guy who saved $60K and asked "Am I getting a piece of that action?" and the VP said that if he did that for everyone than it wouldn't really save the company money and blah blah blah. And you know, I don't blame that guy...he should've at LEAST received a bonus check (maybe like $5000 or something).

Your VP is an idiot. Tell him to take some accounting training. If an employee saved him $60,000 per year, and he gave them "a piece" of that, then the company is not out anything, and, in fact, is ahead. Even if they gave him a lump sum bonus of $100k, they would still be ahead after 2 years (providing the savings continue unchecked.) Not to mention the buy in from a staff member who takes pride, satisfaction and a sense of belonging with him everywhere. These cannot be quantified in dollars. I'm betting that the employee in his example is no longer with the company.

Sold another way:
If I could offer you a way that is completely risk free to reduce your operating costs by approximately $60,000 per year, would you be interested? The details are that it will cost $5000 to save $65000 for a net benefit of $60k. It's a no brainer... until a North American manager hears that it is $5000 of wages.

Your VP needs to realize that he doesn't need to reward everyone in the company for your hard work. He needs to reward YOU.

This is the thing about business that I don't understand. Idiots like your VP kill creativity and the desire to help the company. In the grand scheme of things, he is not doing his due diligence to the company, which is to help it excel in it's own life. He has someone who has the ability, and seemingly the drive, to help. Why not foster that? Is it going to cost the company a bit? Sure it will. But you're working on incentive based pay. If there are no savings, there is no raise/bonus/whatever. There is very little risk to the company at all. It is no different than buying raw supplies and turning them into product. The difference is that this moron does not recognize that human capital is a HUGE benefit to a company.

Unfortunately, I agree with Steve. Most North American companies (not just the US) would just let the "greedy" staffer go... and suffer for it in the long run. Sad but true. I'm wondering if it is because they think if they offer rewards for good ideas, that they will be held hostage and no one will contribute any ideas without rewards.... maybe that's it. Personally, I'd structure the reward scheme against your job description. If it was written in that you should be helping to create efficiencies with your skillset (hired as a programmer, say) then maybe this wouldn't apply to you. Plainly, though, this was outside of the list of duties, so I don't think asking for a reward is out of the question. Now if they change the job description, upon giving you a raise... that's what I'd do to you!

Joseph, one thing I strongly do NOT advocate is time bombing your code. If you did that to me, I'd sue you. Plain and simple. Never do this. Ever. I cannot say it strongly or often enough. Get this thought out of your head.

So long as you create your code on my premises, under my employ, it's mine, not yours. Intentionally destroying it after a certain amount of time is willful, and could land you in hot water. It also reflects very badly on you as a person, and you never know when your work pass will cross with an ex-employee in the future. The world is small, always remember that.

Personally, I put my best into everything I do. It's my reputation, and no VP will ever take that away from me. I've given away stuff I shouldn't have, I'm sure, but I also have a collection of great friends and colleagues who will say nothing but great things about me. Don't sour that, it just isn't worth it and only hurts you in the long run.

You've heard that discretion is the better part of valour, no doubt. Turn the other cheek and walk away if you have to, or put up with it till you get another job. Don't be malicious though.

[lucas]

Hi John,
Unions have become basically a thing of the past in the US. I was a union member for 35 years and have watched with dismay as they have been allowed to disappear. I understand that unions in other countries are more of a cooperative where everyone tries to work together for the benefit of both the company and the workers. In the US it is strictly an adversarial relationship. Bumping heads at every turn and basically no one wins in the long run.

Most employees in US are "At Will" employees which means that you can be fired at any time for any reason or no reason.....that is why I am in business for myself at this stage of my life.

[Norie]

I once worked for a company maintaining an Access database.

When they found out that I was using VBA they asked me to look at some things they were trying to automate.

No problem I thought and happily helped out, I was new after all.

A little later it came time for my review and I was offered the chance to earn some extra money by doing more of the same.

So next time a similar project came along I happily carried out the work, fully expecting to get paid for it.

Then next pay day there was a little something missing - any renumeration for the extra work, which by the way was outwith my job description.

I enquired about this and was told 'Oh we didn't mean that project, but the next one.'

Since this was a small company and the whole atmosphere quite relaxed I thought 'Oh well no big deal'.

Then I found out that they had been passing the code I had created onto another company (not quite their parent company but something like it) who were then distributing it to other companies.

As soon as I found that out I just left.

By the way this company was so well organised I had to meet one of the directors in a car park just before Christmas to get paid - in cash.:bug:

[malik641]

Joseph, one thing I strongly do NOT advocate is time bombing your code. If you did that to me, I'd sue you. Plain and simple. Never do this. Ever. I cannot say it strongly or often enough. Get this thought out of your head.

So long as you create your code on my premises, under my employ, it's mine, not yours. Intentionally destroying it after a certain amount of time is willful, and could land you in hot water. It also reflects very badly on you as a person, and you never know when your work pass will cross with an ex-employee in the future. The world is small, always remember that.

Personally, I put my best into everything I do. It's my reputation, and no VP will ever take that away from me. I've given away stuff I shouldn't have, I'm sure, but I also have a collection of great friends and colleagues who will say nothing but great things about me. Don't sour that, it just isn't worth it and only hurts you in the long run.

You've heard that discretion is the better part of valour, no doubt. Turn the other cheek and walk away if you have to, or put up with it till you get another job. Don't be malicious though. Ken,

Thanks for the advice. You've made good points and I don't disagree with you. The world is most definitely small for sure...and in all honestly I don't like to be thought of as a bad person. I'm just stuck in a rut right now...and not sure how to handle it.


I also just want to clarify that the procedures that I already have written were INDEED at home. I understand fully that it will be the company's property if created/written at work. I actually had to sign a paper before being hired that said if I invented anything at work it is my company's property and they will have full rights to it.


Gain the experience where you are and move on from that.
MattThat's 90% most likely what I'll end up doing.


An American company will let you leave even if you are an asset. They will respond to an ultimatum by shooting theirself in the foot rather than even negotiate as Joseph is finding out.Yup....it's a shame. I'm still so surprised that the review was non-negotiable....or at least I couldn't convince them to negotiate.


OK, if they want to play the "capitalistic bastard" game - I don't know exactly what's involved in doing this in the US - register yourself as a programming or consulting business, tell them that (as you work there) you know what's required for their business and you have a program at home that can be easily modified to make their business more productive (yadda, yadda, yadda) and - take it or leave it - sell it to them at an inflated price :devil2: .Interesting approach. I wonder how I could do that....?? But then again, I'm sure I wouldn't even consider myself as a "programmer" by any means. Yet again, they (my company) doesn't know that.....

I doubt I could sell them my program...that department is too cheap at the moment. Business is kinda weak, but they're trying to have the sales department further promote the engineering side of the company...so maybe that will bring in more money. We had a meeting today, and they told us about the sales thing and that we need to start producing more drawings. I was thinking about suggesting the tools I can create....but I decided to hold off for a little. I figure that if we get more business and we aren't producing as much as they would prefer....I think at that point they would be more interested in having me create something. So I think I'll wait for the right moment for now.


Norie, I'm sorry to hear that....but I'm glad you got outta that when you could. I know I would want out immediately after finding out all of that.



Your VP is an idiot.Thank you :) I concur.

[matthewspatrick]

Joseph,

You have my sympathy. It is unfortunate that your employer is being so shortsighted.

As others have already noted, in the US (I have no idea about other countries), if you create something using your employer's premises, equipment, supplies, etc., and/or during the time you are being paid to work for them, then your creation belongs to your employer. There are very few exceptions to this provided by law, and those can vary by jurisdiction. In addition, the terms of your employment (such as a contract, an oral agreement, or a union contract) can allow for you to keep such creations as your property, under certain circumstances.

Now, if you create something before you joined your employer, or if you did it completely on your own time and using your own resources, you are not obligated to share them without compensation.

If you feel strongly about this, and more importantly, if you can quantify the productivity gains your company can achieve from using your code/having you develop more code, then you should try to negotiate a raise or some additional compensation, perhaps on a contingency basis. If you go that route, though, be prepared to leave if your boss is not receptive to it.

And BTW, some employers do value your skills. Having an ability to create VBA-enhanced tools advanced my career with my current employer, and probably contributed to my being kept on when we had to go through a lot of lay-offs a few years back when the company had a near-death experience.

However you go with it, best of luck :type

[malik641]

Hey Patrick,

Thanks for the sympathy. I appreciate it.

I guess what I can do now is basically try to figure out (in dollars) how I can help the company with the tools I want to create :think: I guess I'll be doing some research.



And I agree...some employers DO value my skills. A great example is I recently got hired to do some automation with excel (and possibly AutoCAD and excel...that'll be fun :yes) for MORE money than I'm making at my job now. Aaaand it's on my own time. More money in my pocket :thumb and a good start to a good reputation here in South FL :) hope it works out well!!

[matthewspatrick]

Best of luck with the new gig, Joseph!

[malik641]

Thanks Patrick :thumb:thumb




Just to clarify this is a 2nd job in addition to my ACAD job (I thought the other post might confuse some people...)

[Ken Puls]

There ya go, bud! Make your mark with job #2, so that they want to hire you full time. That's the way to teach the guys at job #1. ;)

No bad blood, no animosity, just good work and references. :)

[MOS MASTER]

Hi Joseph, :)

Been where you've been al to many times. So I know what a struggle it can be. That's the punishment (or the challenge) for knowing something about a topic that other people don't understand... they simply can't relate to the programming you do. (that's how I've experienced it at times)

Like Ken said it's all about marketing yourself and getting them to understand what you do. (ain't easy) And yes proving it earns extra $ will help!

So good luck on you ... you'll get there for sure! :*)

[malik641]

There ya go, bud! Make your mark with job #2, so that they want to hire you full time. That's the way to teach the guys at job #1. ;)

No bad blood, no animosity, just good work and references. :) :) Yeah, that would be nice. And the cool thing about the new job is that they use AutoCAD as well...so maybe if they like what I do with Excel I can convince them to give me some ACAD projects (starting small, of course :type)


Hi Joseph, :)

Been where you've been al to many times. So I know what a struggle it can be. That's the punishment (or the challenge) for knowing something about a topic that other people don't understand... they simply can't relate to the programming you do. (that's how I've experienced it at times)

Like Ken said it's all about marketing yourself and getting them to understand what you do. (ain't easy) And yes proving it earns extra $ will help!

So good luck on you ... you'll get there for sure! :*) Yeah, you said it...they just don't understand the POWER of VBA!!! (that reminds me of that commercial 'the power of cheese')


Thanks for the encouragement guys! It's nice to see people raise spirits like mine has been from the nice comments :cloud9: I like to dream BIG, and people usually shut me down :mkay lol (don't worry, I'm not really upset....nobody can bring ME DOWN!)

But for now I'll keep on studying and learning as much as I can with everything I'm reading about....believe me, it's a lot...especially for not being in school
:reading:





:igiveup: LOL I don't mean anything by this smiley...I was scrolling through the smileys and I came across this and I think it's the funniest smiley I've ever seen :giggle

[TrippyTom]

Hi Malik,

As a newbie, I think I'm headed down the same path you did with the "evil" company. I was not originally hired for my skills in VBA, but with the help of several books, mrexcel.com and this site, and also a few CDs I have gone way above and beyond the call of duty to help increase productivity and morale with my coworkers.

I think you should say SIANARA to the penny pinchers and hello to company #2. Lay your ground rules BEFORE you do anything and get it in writing if you can. That way they can't give you that lame "oh, we meant the NEXT project" excuse.

After reading all this, I'm starting to think I'm gonna have to give you guys commission for the stuff I make. :*)

[MOS MASTER]

After reading all this, I'm starting to think I'm gonna have to give you guys commission for the stuff I make. :*)

Yes you should! Pay up dude! :whip

[lucas]

Moose really enjoys cracking that whip doesn't he...:devil2:

[MOS MASTER]

Moose really enjoys cracking that whip doesn't he...:devil2:

Happened to me a lot in the past as you can see I'm still running! :rofl:
</IMG></IMG>

[mdmackillop]

Can we tag a poll onto this thread?
If you're not an IT professional, do you get paid for your IT contributions to your company?

[MOS MASTER]

Hi MD, :D

Don't know if it's wise to append it to this thread but I do love the idea!

A poll would be quite interesting..
:whistle:

[Ken Puls]

Hmmm...

I thought that we used to be able to add polls to threads in the prior version of vBulletin. Maybe not though, as the option doesn't seem to be here...

You guys could always start a new thread with the poll and merge it in to this one I would think...

I'd do it myself, but I think I'd like to let someone else decide the verbiage of the question. Personally, I have a partial IT role, but I was not hired as a programmer in any shape or form...

[malik641]

After reading all this, I'm starting to think I'm gonna have to give you guys commission for the stuff I make. :*)
Word. I'm going to open a PayPal account now.

And I agree, I should get things in writing before working for the new guys.



And I AM able to add a pole to this thread....should it just be what MD said?


If you're not an IT professional, do you get paid for your IT contributions to your company?

[lucas]

Its there Ken, under thread tools.....
Joseph, you just need to suffer a little by stopping by the beach on the way to your townhouse. Don't let em get to you, thats their goal.

[malik641]

Yeah, that sure is devastating....going to that beach...with all those smoothe, young and silky ferrari's :grinhalo:

And nah, I won't let them get to me. Just like I didn't let some of my friends from Jersey tell me how much I wouldn't like Florida :beerchug: They were just jealous :devil2:
People who put other people's dreams down don't know how to dream.

[Ken Puls]

And I AM able to add a pole to this thread....should it just be what MD said?

Sure, why not. :)


Its there Ken, under thread tools.....

:doh: Thanks, Steve. Must have been away for too long...

[lucas]

all those smoothe, young and silky ferrari's :grinhalo:
hmm......

[malik641]

hmm......Yeah, you know what I really meant :cool:

[Aussiebear]

I can understand what Joseph is on about. I work for an Australian run, but American owned Company, which is very keen for its employees to contribute more than they are willing to pay for.

For QA purposes, I came up with a spreadsheet concept design, which most of you have had the opportunity to assist me with, particularily Pete. Well after many nights nagging you about concepts and sections of code, I've finally got it working very nicely indeed. Middle management have told me that they think its very good. So good in fact, its been implemented at another feedlot running 60,000 head.

When I asked the Group IT manager about the possibility of having some recognition ( something on the spreadsheet that says that I came up with the concept) for the spreadsheet, " sorry son, you have done it for the good of the Company"...." team player etc".... "now get back to work".

Come the day, I can finally say I have some understanding of VBA, I'll tell them, Farewell. In the mean time they have me over a barrell.

BTW, is there a way to hide code from the users?

[matthewspatrick]

Aussiebear,


When I asked the Group IT manager about the possibility of having some recognition ( something on the spreadsheet that says that I came up with the concept) for the spreadsheet, " sorry son, you have done it for the good of the Company"...." team player etc".... "now get back to work".

Come the day, I can finally say I have some understanding of VBA, I'll tell them, Farewell. In the mean time they have me over a barrell.

Is that sort of 'this spreadsheet was designed by Hal Jalikakick' note common or rare in your company? In fairness to your employer, if they try to maintain certain 'looks', then, well, putting that kind of note in there does not match the scheme.

Plus, to an extent, they are right--you created this stuff because part of your job is to help the company get better. If what you created will generate big cost savings and/or increased revenues, then it is within your rights to ask for a bonus on that basis, but it is also within your employer's rights to say no. If you think that your employer is undervaluing your contribution, then you need to renegotiate the terms of your employment, or leave.

Your group IT manager may or may not agree with you on the value you just created. That, by itself, does not make him/her an ogre. S/he can be an ogre (or not) for various and sundry reasons.

Now, look on the bright side: if your name is not on the spreadsheet, it is less likely you will get support calls when a user does something dumb and breaks it :devil2:


BTW, is there a way to hide code from the users?

You can lock the VBA project, but be advised that the protection can be hacked rather easily. I also generally deplore slapping that onto tools shared with co-workers. There are some tools that I lock in this fashion, but I always give out the password to unlock it along with the tool--the lock is there simply to make it harder to inadvertently screw something up, but I always give my co-workers and clients the opportunity to view the code and perhaps learn something.

[malik641]

When I asked the Group IT manager about the possibility of having some recognition ( something on the spreadsheet that says that I came up with the concept) for the spreadsheet, " sorry son, you have done it for the good of the Company"...." team player etc".... "now get back to work".

If I were you...and if you REALLY wanted some recognition...then I would just add a Control in the Help menu like "About the Design" or something like this. And when the user clicks it, a message box will pop-up and you could put "Designed and thought of by Aussiebear, VBAX Regular :thumb"

The IT department probably would never notice this....and so it's not too "look at me"...I guess...



BTW, is there a way to hide code from the users? Along with what MathewsPatrick stated...you could probably (not sure quite yet) make some class modules and use Public WithEvents to trigger if someone is trying to access the VBE and you could check the username and if it is not yours, it'll prompt for an initial password...at least this way you can get double protection........I think. Maybe I'll work on this :think:



Now, look on the bright side: if your name is not on the spreadsheet, it is less likely you will get support calls when a user does something dumb and breaks it :devil2:Yeah, this could save you plenty of headaches....but then again, if you make something "flawless" then I would want some sort of recognition.

[malik641]

Just a follow up.

I'm still unsure about whether I'm going to share my programming in ACAD with my co-workers. I think I'll give them the small items I make, but the larger items will probably go with me to the grave. And I've said this before, but I want to be clear: I'M MAKING ALL OF THIS AT HOME! And for that reason alone I am keeping my major projects with me whenever I leave. That's where I am with that at this point.

As for my consulting job, that's going great! The employer was talking to my ex-coworker (my friend who suggested me for this job) and told him that he was thinking about hiring me full time :) if I were willing to leave my job now. Which sounds good. But there's one problem with it. They are moving their office north, about 1 hour north....so I think I might accept it as long as the price was right and as long as they are willing to work with me and my school. But we'll see.

[lucas]

Oh darn, you have to move an hour north in Florida. I'm so sorry....its hell to be you isn't it Joseph? Ride the wave, you'll find your center. Remember its every 7th wave.

[malik641]

Oh darn, you have to move an hour north in Florida. I'm so sorry....its hell to be you isn't it Joseph? Ride the wave, you'll find your center. Remember its every 7th wave. Yeah, woes me :devil2:
Man it's great to be here, what a great move I made. Thanks for the great reminder Steve :thumb Appreciate it!

And I should get into surfing, I've never done it before. Sounds like fun.

[lucas]

It's my job to keep you real Joseph....I'm really just jealous. Thats the truth. You have such a bright future. In the midst of all your suffering please find me a job...ha, ha.

[malik641]

It's my job to keep you real Joseph....I'm really just jealous. Thats the truth. You have such a bright future. In the midst of all your suffering please find me a job...ha, ha. Damn man, I should have that as a quote in my sig :rotlaugh:

But seriously, if you really needed...I could get you a job with ACAD. My comp. needs another drafter right now, and I'm pretty sure you have sufficient skills to come on in. And they'd trust my judgement and if I told them you had such great skills in ACAD you could probably make more than me :giggle

But then again I'm not sure how appealing my job is based on this thread. But it's a good start if you want to learn about pools. I think my plan is to get a year's worth of pool knowledge and designing and get a different job selling them. Down here, pools go for an average of $20K and designers (salesman) get 6% commision. I've had a few people tell me that even the weakest salesman make $50K/yr working 30 hours per week. Yes, for real.

Think about it. I could use some company :beerchug: And from some of your posts, it sounds like we could hit up a few bars.

[malik641]

You have such a bright future. By the way, thanks Steve. I can't tell you how much I appreciate motivational comments like this. It's stuff like this that keeps me going :friends: Thanks bud!

[Ken Puls]

Joseph,

Glad to hear that you also have a reputation growing too. Speaks volumes about you, buddy. ;)

[lucas]

I have quite a few folks in your age group in my life right now. All of my children are from 21-26 years old and they all have different groups of friends. All in college and looking forward. Its all I can do to "accentuate the positive" with some of them but all are going to be good people in the end. Our future is in your hands.......now, get off the beach and go study:whip

[malik641]

Joseph,

Glad to hear that you also have a reputation growing too. Speaks volumes about you, buddy. ;)
Thanks Ken :thumb Hope it keeps growing like whoa :)




I have quite a few folks in your age group in my life right now. All of my children are from 21-26 years old and they all have different groups of friends. All in college and looking forward. Its all I can do to "accentuate the positive" with some of them but all are going to be good people in the end. Our future is in your hands.......now, get off the beach and go study:whip
:mkay aw man, ooookaaaay lol

Thanks for all the confidence Steve, it means a lot to me :friends:

[malik641]

I am officially looking for another job, from this moment on.

No, I didn't lose my job. I'm just fed up with it. Listen to this...Check out these shananigans...

Today I started to help out with the commercial side of the business. This is lead by the "Operations Manager" i.e. "The Boss that nobody likes". He was explaining a few things to me today about what to do and here's where I was thrown in a daze...these are his EXACT words:

"Do me a favor, don't use excel to do the calculations. I've wasted too much time correcting people's plans when they tell me 'but excel said this' and they were wrong. So please just do the calculations by hand."

There is not ONE smiley that I could use to express how that made me feel....

So I let him go, and he kept talking (but I didn't tell him "okay", btw)...and about a minute later I couldn't take it anymore. Even though we weren't talking about excel at all...I had to say something:

Me: "I'm sorry, but I can't bite my tongue any longer"

Mgr: "About what?"

Me: "not to argue with you, but I disagree with what you said about excel. I've worked with excel for over a year now, and I use it for fun as a hobby, and for you to say that, well, I have to tell you that what you said defeats the soul purpose of excel. And whatever you old workers had done in error was something wrong that they typed or they didn't make the formula correctly."

...Then I threw a chair at him.........juuuust kidiiiing

He then went on about the fact that "people aren't thinking when they use excel, they think that excel is always right"


I can only imagine how angry some of you guys are becoming, and believe me. Nobody could be more angry than me....I have to work with the guy!!!

I'm SOOOOOO outta there when I get the first chance. And not JUST because of this, but because of the series of events you will find in this thread, on top of us not having much business and poor, poor morale. It's just that this was like the last straw. I'm not giving the 2 weeks yet, but I'm looking for something else. For sure.

[Ken Puls]

ROFL!

So... how long till we see your company on the top 500 list? :devil2:

In my experience, the most mistakes are made when you involve a human. I created a spreasheet this weekend for my own mother... protected sheets, gave her a button to clear out old data, and seriously considered data validation. All because of concern about user error in the future.

Yes, people think Excel is always right, till they're burned. Your manager has good reason to be wary for sure... but the correct approach is to audit the spreasheet, not burn it. Some people can, some people can't work with Excel, no mystery. As a manager, though, his job is to review those skills in his people and deal with it. You watch until the employee has proven themselves, and get rid of the ones that don't (or can't).

Truly, I feel sorry for the owners of the company. It sounds like you have a right good crew at the top there! :D

[lucas]

This is a good place to vent Joseph. Your going to have to bite your lip a little longer.....just don't chew it off...other oportunities will come your way.

[mdmackillop]

In my experience, the most mistakes are made when you involve a human. I created a spreasheet this weekend for my own mother... protected sheets, gave her a button to clear out old data, and seriously considered data validation. All because of concern about user error in the future.

For "Mother" read "fellow workers". If there's a wrong way of doing thigs they'll find it. Took me 15 mninutes to find that one chap had typed in "Saturday 5 August 2006" instead of letting the cell do the formatting! To be honest, I'm extremely miserly in the stuff I dole out because it's usually more trouble than it's worth. Personally I blame the bosses who think that they (especially), and all their employees, have a natural gift for computers so that nobody needs any training.
Good luck with the job hunting, and I hope you find an enlightened boss who rewards you appropriately for your extra endeavours. ( Is there a smiley for flying pigs?)
Regards
MD

[johnske]

yep...

[Ken Puls]

ROFLMFAO! Nice pic, John! :thumb

[Bob Phillips]

yep...

Looks like a pink horse!

[Ken Puls]

Due to the overwhelming "I wish" vote, I've closed this poll.

Please feel free to keep posting comments, and vote by responding here if you like. :)

[Zack Barresse]

To answer the original OP question, no, I do not get paid for it, nor do I get recognized for it. What I do get for it is more work. Of course I'm such a big fan of it I've got more than I can handle and the work of 4 people (probably 6 of most of the mutt's around here..). But, alas, I digress.

I've followed this thread with some interest but have refrained from posting until now. My thoughts have either been said better by others or echoed. You'll forever and always be under-appreciated, under-paid and over-worked. Just do the best with what you got and always be happy. If that means finding employment elsewhere, so be it. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is worth sacrificing your happiness my friend. :)

[johnske]

Looks like a pink horse!A pink horse? A FLYING pink horse at that... wouldn't that be even rarer than a flying pig?

Sorry Bob, it was the best I could come up with at short notice. Enjoy!

[Bob Phillips]

A pink horse? A FLYING pink horse at that... wouldn't that be even rarer than a flying pig?

Sorry Bob, it was the best I could come up with at short notice. Enjoy!

That's better :)

[malik641]

To answer the original OP question, no, I do not get paid for it, nor do I get recognized for it. What I do get for it is more work. Of course I'm such a big fan of it I've got more than I can handle and the work of 4 people (probably 6 of most of the mutt's around here..). But, alas, I digress.

I've followed this thread with some interest but have refrained from posting until now. My thoughts have either been said better by others or echoed. You'll forever and always be under-appreciated, under-paid and over-worked. Just do the best with what you got and always be happy. If that means finding employment elsewhere, so be it. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is worth sacrificing your happiness my friend. :) You're right. Nothing is worth sacrificing happiness :yes I don't know what I'd do if I didn't crack one smile a day :)

I'm sorry I waited so long to post back. But a lot of stuff has happened since then.

Just today we got notice that HCE (where I work), is going out of business. We have about 3-4 weeks to clear everything up and leave. I knew this was going to happen, I just didn't know when.....


So luckily I went to an interview today before I heard the bad news. The company is Schroth engineering www.schroth.com (http://www.schroth.com/), it's a german engineering company that manufactures (and engineers, and tests, and designs) safety harnesses. They were originally looking for a drafter / designer with a 3d backround in either autoCAD or solidworks. I figured I had enough 3d experience to send my resume, so I did.

Turns out the guy wanted to interview me mostly because of my VBA automation :). He stated my job would be like 60-65% Excel & Access VBA, and 35-40% drafting / designing with AutoCAD and Corel Draw. I couldn't believe this guy knew the power of VBA, and he was so interested in it. It was cool. The place seems like a good deal...especially cause I believe they'll be flexible with my school schedule. And because I can continue my passion for VBA and engineering at the same time :). I hope it turns out for the best.

As far as my original question goes....I'm still deciding. But if I get this job, obviously the question wouldn't apply.

[Ken Puls]

Great, Joseph! I hope that it works out for you! :thumb

[malik641]

Great, Joseph! I hope that it works out for you! :thumb
Thanks Ken :thumb And I just got the offer about 1 hour ago, and I couldn't be happier :yes :beerchug: Party time!!!! :rofl:

I'll be back later to post about my original question, and most likely mark it solved :)

[cleturno]

The way that I look at it is that I am getting X amount of work done and everyone else is getting X divided by some other number. If I do more then them and the boss starts to notice and asks why I would be willing to explain that these tools are a part of my software library that was established before I came to work for him. This is a sore spot for me because esentially someone else is using my work to expedite their work and if I am not compensated in any way shape or form I would be ****ed.

Technically though if you work for him and you developed the source on his dime then he owns the code. Which really sucks.

Just my 2 cents.

[Zack Barresse]

Yeah, I'm in the same sort of boat. I've developed many VBA based solutions for my employer. I'm now moving onto another job and others will be using my solutions (err, probably screwing them up). I won't be compensated for them, as I created them to assist in the functions of my job. I have never been compensated other than my standard rate of pay for any work I've done, no matter how above-and-beyond it is/was. The benefit now, is if they want service for it, they'll be paying a consulting fee for it. ;)

[malik641]

if they want service for it, they'll be paying a consulting fee for it. ;)Word :yes

You know what's funny? I never showed the functions/automation that my workbook I made to my boss until yesterday. And since the place is closing down, I figured it didn't matter if anyone sees it now...because it was only taylored for the engineering department, so nobody will have a use for it now :devil2: I guess it worked out in the end, huh?

So I showed it to my boss (the nice one, I have 2 bosses) and he is thinking of starting his own small business and now he says he'll want to call me to do some work for him in the future. We'll see how that goes.

Then he said to show the VP. I figured...why not? So I called him down and showed him everything...like one button picked out PDF's for you on a server based on the project you were working on and placed them in an outlook email and it sends it to the engineer, just from a button :)...and another that all you did was type in the project number, and you would press a button and it would automatically hyperlink the cell with the project number to the autocad file, then insert today's date in one column, project company in another, and project name in another........so I showed him like 5 more buttons like this. His whole attitude (compared to the previous meeting I had with him regarding my review) did a 180...and he wants to meet with me to discuss possible projects I could work on...and I told him sure, on a consulting basis, that is :yes and I'll be sure to charge him correctly for this type of automation for sure.


Technically though if you work for him and you developed the source on his dime then he owns the code. Which really sucks. Right. But even though I made it at home, it doesn't matter too much in my case because the code doesn't handle errors really. It's made to function with sensitive parameters (most especially cause most of the Automation works with a server to find files)...
This is what I would do if I wasn't getting compensated for it....just make it not handle errors too well....or maybe what I mean to say is don't make it so dynamic. Because if people run into errors with it, you're at no obligation to fix it (to me, anyway).