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Thread: Firearms

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by xld
    what happens to people like Zack when they do use that weapon, and they kill someone
    I hope to God I never, ever have to use a firearm on another human being.

  2. #42
    Moderator VBAX Guru Aussiebear's Avatar
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    Having owned and used firearms for a good 40 yrs of my life, I can see points on both sides of the argument. The Australian Federal government as of a couple of years ago further restricted the privilege of owning firearms after the Martin Bryant affair. I personally opposed the method of the restriction on the basis that it affected my privilege of owning and operating a firearm. Responsiple owners lost out because a few have failed to take responsibility of gun ownership.

    Then just a few months ago I was travelling down a highway not far west of here, when some louts overtook us, and in the process of doing so, one of them pulled a handgun on us. They thought it was a joke. I on the other hand, rang the police and asked them to pull the vehicle over for an impromptu inspection.

    Last I heard, was the handgun was registered but the guy has now lost his right to hold any firearms, so I'm sort of glad for the restrictive laws imposed upon us.

    Ted

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussiebear
    ...Then just a few months ago I was travelling down a highway not far west of here, when some louts overtook us, and in the process of doing so, one of them pulled a handgun on us. They thought it was a joke. I on the other hand, rang the police and asked them to pull the vehicle over for an impromptu inspection.

    Last I heard, was the handgun was registered but the guy has now lost his right to hold any firearms, so I'm sort of glad for the restrictive laws imposed upon us.
    Do you think they would have been as brazen if the "law of the land" was that anyone could be carrying a handgun?
    Brandtrock




  4. #44
    Moderator VBAX Guru Aussiebear's Avatar
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    Yes I do. This was just the act of a teenager, who had his brain switched off.

  5. #45
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    @ Ted: Ted, the law in Australia with respect to handgund has always been that to apply for a license for one you needed to show a strong overwhelming reason for needing one - e.g. you were a policeman, you worked on an armoured car, had a high-risk job in a bank, etc. Sporting shooters had very strict standards placed on them and having a handgun for the sake of having a handgun was simply not a reason. AFAIK the new laws are no different to the old in this regard so you can't say you're in favour of the new laws because of that incident.

    Long-arms - rifles, shotguns had no such restrictions and under the old laws almost anyone that did not have a history of violence used to be able to walk into a gunshop and buy a long-gun. The only licensing required for long-guns was in the categories of: Semi-automatic weapons with a calibre larger than .22" and, any .303 caliber (a military calibre) rifle (you needed to show you were a grazier to purchase one of these) - fully-automatic weapons of any kind were totally banned and could only be purchased or used by the police and military.

    A few years prior to the latest gun-laws being introduced I read that quite a number of people were in possession of AK47s, SLRs and other such-like assault weapons, so obviously the police weren't doing their job (and when the gun buy-back scheme was introduced I heard of quite a number of people burying their weapons rather than surrendering them for destruction)... Anyway, ignoring that little aspect - what reason is there to believe that the police will now do their job better? They would have been better off doing their job in the 1st place.

    Under those old laws, Martin Bryant, a mentally ill person, was forbidden to have a weapon of any sort, yet the police did virtually nothing to stop him getting a rifle and murdering 35 ppl with it in a killing spree where many others were also wounded. In our PC world, the police also did little to stop the killing, cornering him in a house and negotiating with him (even tho snipers had opportunities to pick him off) while he killed the 2 occupants of the house during the negotiations. This is the incident that caused our PM to make a political decision to - and with no study being done to justify it - introduce the new gun laws which has cost in excess of one billion dollars (and that's still rising).

    In our pre-PC world many many lives could have been saved because this person would have simply been shot down like the mad dog that he was, and even at the latest, no negotiations, it would been - a snipers shot, or - storm the house. That's the "old' way of doing things...

    @ Ken: You mentioned something earlier about a knife. Obviously you've never been confronted with someone intent on killing you with said weapon - I have, and spent six months on crutches with two+ years of rehabilitation due to the fact that my only recourse to dying right then and there was to jump out a window. Oh yeah - this is after said gun-laws were introduced.

    Believe me, I would feel quite confident about disarming someone with a rifle, but there's really nothing scarier than someone coming at you armed with a knife held behind them and out of your reach and intent on killing you. Give me an attacker with a firearm any day...
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  6. #46
    Moderator VBAX Guru Aussiebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnske
    @ Ted: Ted, the law in Australia with respect to handgund has always been that to apply for a license for one you needed to show a strong overwhelming reason for needing one - e.g. you were a policeman, you worked on an armoured car, had a high-risk job in a bank, etc. Sporting shooters had very strict standards placed on them and having a handgun for the sake of having a handgun was simply not a reason. AFAIK the new laws are no different to the old in this regard so you can't say you're in favour of the new laws because of that incident.
    The new laws now restrict how you carry firearms and in particular handguns. In the old days we used to carry firearms around in the landcruiser and its was accepted ( in the rural areas) that you could drive into town to pick up parts etc and no one really cared. All that has stopped. Thankfully. The carriage of handguns has tighened up considerably more so.

    Long-arms - rifles, shotguns had no such restrictions
    Really? There was an age restriction where you had to over 17

    Semi-automatic weapons with a calibre larger than .22" and, any .303 caliber (a military calibre) rifle (you needed to show you were a grazier to purchase one of these) - fully-automatic weapons of any kind were totally banned and could only be purchased or used by the police and military.
    Sporting shooters and members of gun clubs had access to .303 caliber or higher.

    A few years prior to the latest gun-laws being introduced I read that quite a number of people were in possession of AK47s, SLRs and other such-like assault weapons, so obviously the police weren't doing their job (and when the gun buy-back scheme was introduced I heard of quite a number of people burying their weapons rather than surrendering them for destruction)... Anyway, ignoring that little aspect - what reason is there to believe that the police will now do their job better? They would have been better off doing their job in the 1st place.
    True, there were a phenominal number of semi and assault weapons out there. And yes there are stories of some of these firearms having been buried in PVC piping. I have faith that the police will have a understanding of what is out there.

    Under those old laws, Martin Bryant, a mentally ill person, was forbidden to have a weapon of any sort, yet the police did virtually nothing to stop him getting a rifle and murdering 35 ppl with it in a killing spree where many others were also wounded. In our PC world, the police also did little to stop the killing, cornering him in a house and negotiating with him (even tho snipers had opportunities to pick him off) while he killed the 2 occupants of the house during the negotiations. This is the incident that caused our PM to make a political decision to - and with no study being done to justify it - introduce the new gun laws which has cost in excess of one billion dollars (and that's still rising).

    In our pre-PC world many many lives could have been saved because this person would have simply been shot down like the mad dog that he was, and even at the latest, no negotiations, it would been - a snipers shot, or - storm the house. That's the "old' way of doing things...
    There's a bigger picture out there than just shooting down people who have committed an offense with a firearm. Shooting someone is the easy way out of this situation, but we are becoming a better society slowly but surely, because we are prepared to take these people into custody and then to gain an understanding of what caused this person to commit the crime. Its one thing to fix the symptom but it takes more courage to fix the cause.

    Ted
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  7. #47
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    Of course there were age restrictions, and these varied from state to state (but I didn't mean to bog things down by going thru the entire firearms act re age limits, gun clubs etc here)

    There's a bigger picture out there than just shooting down people who have committed an offense with a firearm. Shooting someone is the easy way out of this situation, but we are becoming a better society slowly but surely, because we are prepared to take these people into custody and then to gain an understanding of what caused this person to commit the crime. Its one thing to fix the symptom but it takes more courage to fix the cause.
    Unfortunately, there's a very big difference between taking someone into custody after they've committed a murder and taking them out during the commission of a murder - that's what I was referring to. The police hemmed and hawed and tried to negotiate even while the killing was still going on!! A much more robust response was needed...

    Why did he do it? No-one will ever know that - he said himself he didn't know - he was assessed as having the IQ of an 11yo and the emotional age of a 2yo. When someone asked how he - as a prohibited person - was able to obtain the weapons, his response was "when you've got a million dollars you can get whatever you want". He was also suspected of killing the woman who left him the money in her will, as well as his father (who was found in a dam with Martins (diving) weight-belt wrapped around his neck) and several other ppl prior to his spree.

    Perhaps you think "shot down like the mad dog that he was" is too strong, but consider this: he set fire to the house where he'd killed his last victims and then surrendered to police while his clothes were afire from that act.

    Now, the police took him to hospital for treatment for his burns - the very same hospital where his victims were being treated (or had been consigned to the morgue) and the doctors and nurses in that hospital were so disgusted and horrified they flat-out refused to treat him - we're talking here about the worlds two most caring and compassionate of professions, every single one refused - from memory, I think the police had to get a court order that compelled that he be treated, yet even then - in direct defiance of a court order - they still all refused and I think his treatment then fell on the head of the director of the hospital, who was eventually forced to treat him personally. I think the actions of those ppl says something in itself...
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  8. #48
    VBAX Mentor Brandtrock's Avatar
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    Interesting point John,

    The WILL of the people is sometimes displayed more poetically by the WON'T of the people.

    Regards,
    Brandtrock




  9. #49
    Moderator VBAX Guru Ken Puls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnske
    @ Ken: You mentioned something earlier about a knife. Obviously you've never been confronted with someone intent on killing you with said weapon - I have, and spent six months on crutches with two+ years of rehabilitation due to the fact that my only recourse to dying right then and there was to jump out a window. Oh yeah - this is after said gun-laws were introduced.

    Believe me, I would feel quite confident about disarming someone with a rifle, but there's really nothing scarier than someone coming at you armed with a knife held behind them and out of your reach and intent on killing you. Give me an attacker with a firearm any day...
    Okay, so let's look at this a bit. The guy with the knife was intent on killing you. I'll give you that. So at that point, any comment on laws is a waste of time. He's past those.

    I would suggest, though, that if he had a pistol, you'd be dead. He would not have needed to get close to you, or would have been able to shoot you as you tried to (sensibly) run away.

    As terrifying as it might be, I'd still opt for the knife. I'm not trying to diminish your experience at all, but at least you're alive to talk about it.
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  10. #50
    VBAX Mentor Brandtrock's Avatar
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    He brought a knife. Had you been "packing", he'd have brought a knife to a gun fight. That is generally a losing proposition for the knife wielding thug. Additionally, the guy with the gun might not have to use it as the guy with the knife will realize he's out gunned.

    Like Ken, I'm in no way trying to minimize your experience either and am glad you managed to get away.
    Brandtrock




  11. #51
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    If the person is within 25 feet, I would rather be facing somebody with a firearm. Hands down I agree with John there. Somebody with a knife who knows how to use it (which I understand is apparently rare) is a much bigger threat than somebody with a firearm. I have faced people with both a firearm and a knife. I felt I was in a better situation being opposed by somebody with a firearm and was absolutely fearful for my life opposed with a knife.

    I was in church yesterday with my mother (a few town's over) and they were mourning the loss of a boy and his mother, the boy was young twenties. They lost their life to a home invader. The town they lived in was about the size of mine, around 3-4k people. The killer stabbed them to death. He called the police right after the act and surrendered to the police, stating he, "just wanted to know what it felt like to take a life." Quite sick. The victims had a lot of prayers for them and their loved one's. Very sad.

  12. #52
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    My wife and I were held up at gun point once about 15 years ago. It's not a fun experience and I wouldn't encourge anyone to repeat it. Since we were robbed of a deposit from my wife's business, we then spent about 4 hours in the police station being interrogated, since there were no witnesses to said crime. Would it have mattered if the criminal was armed with a knife? When someone is holding a weapon on one of your loved ones, your brain kinda stops. I can just remember focusing on the gun. If I'ed had a gun, I don't believe I would have even realized it, and if I had realized it, I would have most likely ended up getting my wife shot. Thank the Lord the guy took the money and it ended there.
    Solution: Get the freaking criminals off the streets and the guns and knives and crimes will follow!! The judical systems in both the US and Canada are so lax, that they allow criminals to commit a crime get back out on good behaviour and step thier criminal activities up to the next level on the next offense, and then treat the victims like the criminals without any rights to restitution.
    My 2 cents.
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  13. #53
    Just my 2 cents worth. I find it strange that the goverments that restrict the use of guns. Will sell them so easily to other governments so that they can attack and kill thousands of inocent people. Where did Israel get it weapons that killed thousands in Lebanon whilst the world watched on. Made in the good old USA.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterwmartin
    Just my 2 cents worth. I find it strange that the goverments that restrict the use of guns. Will sell them so easily to other governments so that they can attack and kill thousands of inocent people. Where did Israel get it weapons that killed thousands in Lebanon whilst the world watched on. Made in the good old USA.
    Unfortunately these deaths are a drop in the ocean compared with the deaths which will result from the deliberate actions of the tobacco companies in addicting third world population to their products.
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  15. #55
    Moderator VBAX Guru Ken Puls's Avatar
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    Malcolm,

    Have you seent the movie "Thank you for smoking"? It's fantastic. Well worth the rent.
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  16. #56
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    I've not Ken. I'll keep a look out for it.
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  17. #57
    Moderator VBAX Guru Ken Puls's Avatar
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    Ken Puls, CMA - Microsoft MVP (Excel)
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  18. #58
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    I took 5 years of Karate just for the purpose of having a way to defend myself if I ever found myself in a hostile situation. Mugging etc.... My wife insisted we buy a hand gun to have in the house and against my better judgment I went along with it. She took it to a range, fired it the one time and it has sat in a drawer for the last 10 years. I hid the bullets, guessing that I would be the most likely target she would take a shot at. HA! It makes me nervous to have it in the house. You really have to think to yourself, would I really use it.

    Gary

  19. #59
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    Gary,

    My mother used to have a refrigerator magnet that said "A woman never shot a man...while he was doing the dishes." I think this could be your preventative way of avoiding a confrontation if your wife ever found the bullets

    Ken,

    Great suggestion on "Thank you for Smoking"! Excellent movie. After you suggested it, I put it on my netflix as my next movie. My girlfriend equally enoyed it


    Everyone,

    Great conversation overall. Lots of interesting points. And as mathewspatrick said, very civilised.

    One thing that amuses me was the start of the whole conversation included some statistics that were quoted from a television show. There were no links to prove that data, but still was used repeatedly to make counter arguements. Now that the data is disproved, there hasn't been any more counter arguements. This makes me wonder if Bob was just really playing with us this whole time?




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  20. #60
    VBAX Tutor GaryB's Avatar
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    Joseph,

    I do the dishes, why do you think she wanted the gun!

    Gary

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