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Thread: Potential VBA job in Sydney - is proposed wage ok?

  1. #1
    Knowledge Base Approver VBAX Expert brettdj's Avatar
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    Potential VBA job in Sydney - is proposed wage ok?

    I had a phone message today asking if I knew anyone who would be interested in 3 months work (maybe up to 12 months) working in VBA with an investment bank in Sydney. Pay is A$500 (around US$380) a day

    Can any of you who contract let me know if this is a decent rate? I'd like to get a feel before I suggest some names. Any highly recommended Sydney based VBA consultants would be appreciated too.

    Cheers

    Dave

  2. #2
    Distinguished Lord of VBAX VBAX Grand Master Bob Phillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettdj
    I had a phone message today asking if I knew anyone who would be interested in 3 months work (maybe up to 12 months) working in VBA with an investment bank in Sydney. Pay is A$500 (around US$380) a day

    Can any of you who contract let me know if this is a decent rate? I'd like to get a feel before I suggest some names. Any highly recommended Sydney based VBA consultants would be appreciated too.
    Actually, ?220 per day is a very poor rate for people who have to support themselves, no holiday pay, pension. I did a job for a charity at circa ?300 per day, but only at that rate because it was a charity.

    But for 12 months, and a better rate, will they pay travel expenses?
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    VBAX Mentor XL-Dennis's Avatar
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    Dave,

    Althoug I'm not a candidate I agree with Bob - Short terms hiring should per se be paid much better (especially after I converted it to my local currency!).

    Kind regards,
    Dennis
    Kind regards,
    Dennis

    ExcelKB | .NET & Excel | 2nd edition PED


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    Moderator VBAX Guru Ken Puls's Avatar
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    Dave,

    I'll throw in the 3rd vote... I'd agree with both Bob & Dennis. Most consultants in my neck of the woods (although I'm not thinking VBA necessarily), charge anywhere from 2 - 3 times that rate, depending on how good they are at what they do.
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  5. #5
    Knowledge Base Approver VBAX Expert brettdj's Avatar
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    Thats interesting guys, I thought it sounded pretty decent when converted into permanent terms of around A$130K pa - the average wage over here is around $50K p a, I don't know what the deal is with holiday pay and superannuation (pension) etc. Australia is a pretty cheap place to live, with the possible exception of Sydney that is, LOL. But I didn't know if that was a good rate for 3 months so thanks for the feedback

    Bob, I wouldn't be too expectant on the travel expenses

    From a recent thread at Dicks Blog I had the impression that consulting wasn't a high earning business?

    Cheers

    Dave

  6. #6
    VBAX Mentor XL-Dennis's Avatar
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    From a recent thread at Dicks Blog I had the impression that consulting wasn't a high earning business?
    You expect that anyone will go public what they are paid / hour and for projects

    In all my jobs the price level is part of the NDAs.

    Kind regards,
    Dennis
    Kind regards,
    Dennis

    ExcelKB | .NET & Excel | 2nd edition PED


  7. #7
    Knowledge Base Approver VBAX Expert brettdj's Avatar
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    Dennis,

    Not at all

    But from previous discussions I would have thought that US$100K per annum would be a decent income for a VBA consultant

    Dave

    PS. Sorry about those dupes Ken, I've no idea how that happened

  8. #8
    Moderator VBAX Guru Ken Puls's Avatar
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    No problem, Dave. I tried three times to post the following and gave up... fortunately, I saved it first.

    Dave, you raise some good points on the cost of living. I've got no idea what the cost of living is in Australia vs USA vs Canada, but that can definately be a factor. That's the biggest issues with global comparsions... the money may be the same, but the actual economic costs of living in the area may be a far cry different.

    I think you'll also find that those who maintain a store front charge more than those who don't. I seem to remember reading somewhere that one should price themselves at 2-3 times what they make in an hourly wage. Can't provide a link though.

    Ultimately, I'd say that the true value comes down to what the contractor wants/needs... if the salary proposed is already 3 times the national average... well it seems like they might be able to find someone local at a minimum.

    Ken Puls, CMA - Microsoft MVP (Excel)
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  9. #9
    VBAX Master Norie's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    In my last job I was paid ?7.50 ph. Am I missing something?

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    Hi Dave,

    Did a quick Google search and offhand I'd say it was a fairly good rate of pay for Sydney.

    Lots of results for some of these, but generally they're asking for either someone with lotsa banking exp or Uni Graduates with 'multi-language programming' capabilities to even get near the rate you suggest

    search: pay rate australia programmer

    http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-3621/fid-7636

    E.G.
    Java J2EE Developer with Visual Basic - Investment Banking
    Java J2EE SQL Developer with VB skills reqd by this leading global investment bank. Prior banking/funds exp desirable but 4-5 yrs blue-chip exp OK $80,000 - $105,000

    search: pay rate australia vba excel programmer

    http://www.brainbox.com.au/brainbox/...9?opendocument permanent (graduate wanted) $70-$80k plus bonuses

    http://www.jobserve.com/RecruiterJob...id=38314&c=AUS

    HTH,
    John
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  11. #11
    Distinguished Lord of VBAX VBAX Grand Master Bob Phillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnske
    Hi Dave,

    Did a quick Google search and offhand I'd say it was a fairly good rate of pay for Sydney.

    Lots of results for some of these, but generally they're asking for either someone with lotsa banking exp or Uni Graduates with 'multi-language programming' capabilities to even get near the rate you suggest

    search: pay rate australia programmer

    http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-3621/fid-7636

    E.G.
    Java J2EE Developer with Visual Basic - Investment Banking
    Java J2EE SQL Developer with VB skills reqd by this leading global investment bank. Prior banking/funds exp desirable but 4-5 yrs blue-chip exp OK $80,000 - $105,000

    search: pay rate australia vba excel programmer

    http://www.brainbox.com.au/brainbox/...9?opendocument permanent (graduate wanted) $70-$80k plus bonuses

    http://www.jobserve.com/RecruiterJob...id=38314&c=AUS

    HTH,
    John
    But that is permies is it not. On average, a permie costs the company twice as much to employ as the wage (holiday pay, pensions, taxes, support staff, buildings, etc.). Consultants cost the up-front amount.

    As Ken says, consultants run their busines sand have to factor those costs into a living wage in, they usually do not work at all times.
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  12. #12
    Knowledge Base Approver VBAX Expert brettdj's Avatar
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    I spoke to the agency guy today - he is very keen to get a gun guy - and he said that the investment bank would go higher for the right person

    So I took the easy option and told him to speak to John Green about the work, or Norman Harker for a recommendation (Bob I assume Norman doesn't consult?)

    The interesting thing was that the agency guy tracked my VBA interest down from Linked In, https://www.linkedin.com/, picked up that I was Australian and worked for BHP at Colo's site and then got my number from front desk. Looks like linked in does actually work at times guys

    Cheers

    Dave

  13. #13
    Distinguished Lord of VBAX VBAX Grand Master Bob Phillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettdj
    I spoke to the agency guy today - he is very keen to get a gun guy - and he said that the investment bank would go higher for the right person
    Well, if they throw a couple of return flights, a 12 month contract, it would be tempting at a higher rate. Quite fancy a year down under.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettdj
    So I took the easy option and told him to speak to John Green about the work, or Norman Harker for a recommendation (Bob I assume Norman doesn't consult?)
    No, Norman is fully employed by a Uni in NSW, is writing a book, and has a new baby, so he is pretty busy.


    Quote Originally Posted by brettdj
    The interesting thing was that the agency guy tracked my VBA interest down from Linked In, https://www.linkedin.com/, picked up that I was Australian and worked for BHP at Colo's site and then got my number from front desk. Looks like linked in does actually work at times guys
    BHP?
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    Nihil simul inventum est et perfectum

    Abusus non tollit usum

    Last night I dreamed of a small consolation enjoyed only by the blind: Nobody knows the trouble I've not seen!
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  14. #14
    Distinguished Lord of VBAX VBAX Grand Master Bob Phillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norie
    In my last job I was paid ?7.50 ph. Am I missing something?
    What, not minimum?
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    Nihil simul inventum est et perfectum

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    Last night I dreamed of a small consolation enjoyed only by the blind: Nobody knows the trouble I've not seen!
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  15. #15
    Knowledge Base Approver VBAX Expert brettdj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xld
    Well, if they throw a couple of return flights, a 12 month contract, it would be tempting at a higher rate. Quite fancy a year down under.
    I'll send you the email address

    Quote Originally Posted by xld
    No, Norman is fully employed by a Uni in NSW, is writing a book, and has a new baby, so he is pretty busy.
    ?
    How old is Norman - I had him pegged at mid 50's in the photo

    Quote Originally Posted by xld
    BHP?
    My employer

  16. #16
    Moderator VBAX Guru Ken Puls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettdj
    The interesting thing was that the agency guy tracked my VBA interest down from Linked In, https://www.linkedin.com/, picked up that I was Australian and worked for BHP at Colo's site and then got my number from front desk. Looks like linked in does actually work at times guys
    Well go figure that! That reminds me that there's a couple of VBAXers in your list that I need to add to mine.

    As far as the consulting rate goes, I think that Bob summed up what I was trying to get at. If they're hiring a permanent or long term contract guy, they'd be paying far less than if they hired a freelancer. My rate was thinking in the freelancer side of things, not a full time employee.

    Not that it matters for this, but in case anyone is interested, my opinions on why Freelancers are always more expensive are:
    -They have to advertise
    -They have to budget on not being able to get work all the time
    -They may be considering the value of their personal time if they are part timers
    -They may have an office to pay for if they are not
    -Must provide own computer and software
    -No holiday pay or paid days off
    -No medical, dental or other health benefits covered by employer
    -They assume the legal risks of doing business
    -They run the risk of having contract terminated with no notice

    It should be obvious that this is not an exhaustive list by any means, but it really comes down to Risk. In the case of an employee, the company assumes it. In the case of the freelancer, the freelancer assumes it.

    If you want to pay less $ in the long term, you hire a full time employee. Even with the benefits and holiday pay, the freelancer will always cost you more on a dollar for dollar basis. Companies are attracted to the freelancer though, as the freelancer will be focussed on the job at hand, and once complete will be let go. With employees, they're stuck with the salary, the regular distractions that always happen to every employee over and above their job, and finding them work if they don't have anything pressing to do. Also, to get rid of an employee, they may get stuck with a severance package as well.

    Again, by no means exhaustive, and some of it debateable for sure, but helps explain the difference to those who start clutching their chest when given a contractor's rate.
    Ken Puls, CMA - Microsoft MVP (Excel)
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettdj
    I had a phone message today asking if I knew anyone who would be interested in 3 months work (maybe up to 12 months) working in VBA with an investment bank in Sydney. Pay is A$500 (around US$380) a day

    Can any of you who contract let me know if this is a decent rate? I'd like to get a feel before I suggest some names. Any highly recommended Sydney based VBA consultants would be appreciated too.

    Cheers

    Dave
    The rate that one can expect varies widely by geographic location.
    I would expect that rates vary even within Australia.

    I expect that many folkes would be happy to be "guaranteed" $100000(US) for a year, but with short term contracts, that just does not work.

    A really good programmer, i.e, one who can also contribute to the analysis of a problem, not just code, would be hard to find back here for less than $85(US) per hour + expenses.

  18. #18
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    Over here the freelancers I know of charge between 75 and 100 euro's (+ expenses) per hour to the hiring party...

    And I agree with Bob a year Down under would be lovely....(is delaying the construction of a new house part of expenses?)

    Good luck in finding the right guy!
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  19. #19
    VBAX Master Norie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xld
    What, not minimum?
    That was a raise, I started on ?7.00 p/h.

    And some guy working on the project was on about ?300 p/day.

    You know what he did each day?

    He set off some code (in Excel) that took all day to run and then wandered around, drinking coffee etc.

    After he left I took a look at his code (it was a mess) , and the data it was running on.

    I imported the data into Access and ran a simple query.

    The query took seconds to run and gave the same results.

  20. #20
    Moderator VBAX Mentor sheeeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpuls
    Dave,

    I'll throw in the 3rd vote... I'd agree with both Bob & Dennis. Most consultants in my neck of the woods (although I'm not thinking VBA necessarily), charge anywhere from 2 - 3 times that rate, depending on how good they are at what they do.
    Agree.. Every travel expenses had rocketed nowadays.

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